Subtle Breeding Signs

[Missi]

Some of you might remember that my pair of boas are actually a live-in couple. They've been together since mid-December of last year and have never been apart for more than 15 minutes. When I first introduced the male into the same cage as the female, he began to court her and continued his efforts all through the winter months. I think the last time I saw him courting her was sometime in February.

Now that the new breeding season is upon us, I've been watching the two to see if the mating behavior will continue. So far, nothing. The closest that the two get to eachother is when they're both in the water bowl. Even now, the female has burried herself in the bedding on the bottom floor and the male is soaking in the water. I didn't know if there's anyone else who has their pairs together all year long and could maybe share a little info with me. I'm not worried about the two not mating, because they're happy and don't mind the company of the other. I just didn't know if the mating signs might be a little more subtle now that the pair are used to eachother.

I'd separate the male from the female for a week or two and see how that works out, but the cute little Hoggs that I got from Jeff are in my spare cage. :)

Any insight and info is welcomed and appreciated.

[Linda]

It's still early in the breeding season. Most boas start breeding as the days get cooler and shorter. I don't think it's the drop in temps, although there is a slight drop. I think it's more of the shortening of the daylight hours. I keep a hot spot that's 92 degrees. I also continue to feed. I normally give females 2 large rats every two weeks. During breeding season they get 1 large rat, every two weeks. I like to feed mine until they stop eating on their own. For me it's the best way to know if an ovulation is pending. My females will stop eating after the pre-ov swell. They will only take 1 more meal after the POS. They won't eat again until after they give birth. I continue to offer, but they just refuse to eat.

I like to keep mine as close to sunrise and sunset as possible. I shorten the days by 15 minutes a week. I only adjust the times once a week.

The first thing you might notice is your males tail will thicken or swell. That's a sign that he producing sperms. He might leave his fluids around the cage, but since yours are together he might leave it on her. :eek:
It's really sort of gross and cool at the same time, but it's really more gross. LOL. If your males tail swells like mine do you really can't miss it. It also feels more "squishy" than it does normally. It's really something you have to see first hand. Trying to describe it is really hard. I'll post a picture below to show what I mean.

When a male is courting he will follow the female around. He'll do a zig zag across her body. He might squeeze her as well. He will court for a very long time before she will actually allow copulation. There will be many times he will be in the "right area" and you might think they're doing it, but most times they're not. Once you see them actually doing it you'll never forget what it looks like. BTW it's more than just him being in her. LOL. :o The first time I saw it I wasn't sure what was happening. When I realized what he was really doing...... It was one of lifes most embarrassing moments. :o I quickly left the room.

Yours are together all the time, so your female may act differently than those that house theirs seperately, before being put together for breeding. Possible signs to look for in your female is....

A roundness. Not really a swelling, but a roundness. She might feel more "firm" in the area where she'll later have pre-ov swell and ovulation swells. I don't know for sure if this roundness is a sign of forming folicles or not. It's just something I've noticed with my females.

First there's the roundness and firming in the ovulation area. Next the pre-ov swell and that twist thing. The ovulations come shortly after the twist. It might be a week or a few weeks before it happens. Once you see these signs you'll know what I'm talking about. Unless my boas are just weird. In that case you won't see the roundness and firming. The roundness is just something I noticed when I looked back at my previous notes.

The pre-ov swell, the twist, and the ovulations are something that most boas do.

Females will drink more water when they're forming folicles. At least that's what I've read. My females drink more water during breeding season, because I change the water everyday. I normally change the water 2 or 3 times a week, but during breeding season it's everyday. I've noticed that they drink more often when the water is fresher.

Once your male starts to show interest, your female might whip her tail or lay down urates. Maybe she'll do both. She might not do either, since you keep yours together.

The best thing you can do is check them daily and take LOTS of notes. Even little things that might not mean anything at the time, could make lots of sense later. Be sure to take photos of anything you see that seems "different". Take a few breeding pictures too. Those are just fun to have. :)

My males started developing sperms and leaving deposits all around their cages and in there water bowls in late August. I put my pairs together on Sept 4th. I have 1 female that had an obvious swelling, so far. It's really early in the season, so I really don't know what to make of the swelling I saw. I did take a picture of it. I have 2 others that have the roundness I like to look for, but it's still really early in the season. I made notes of the roundness and took pictures, but I'm not doing the happy dance yet. I save that for actual ovulations. :)

Anyway here's a picture of my males tail. He's breeding, so it wrapped about a female. You can see how swollen it is and the scale seperation.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/majikboa/bird%20pictures/Boas628.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/majikboa/bird%20pictures/Boas629.jpg

Here's my female with the swelling. I really don't know what to make of it, since it's so early in the season. Last time she was bred and ovulated it was towards the end of Janurary, before I saw an ovulation. The last time this girl ate was late Sept.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/majikboa/bird%20pictures/Boas614.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/majikboa/bird%20pictures/Boas616.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/majikboa/bird%20pictures/Boas612.jpg

[Sunbino]

What kind of substract is that? I wanna get that stuff, It looks better than newspaper. Also where can i get it? A Link maybe would do thanks. BTW There gettin Er Done =D

[Linda]

Thanks,
I hope they're getting it done too. ;)

The substrate is Indented Bogus Kraft Paper. I get the 24" stuff. It's on a roll that's 300 feet long. It's cheaper if you buy 3 rolls at a time. It's also cheaper if you buy the rolls and cut it yourself. I still use newspaper underneath it though. You need to clean more often and you need to remove them from their cage when you clean. They sell the roll holders too. I get it at: http://www.packagingprice.com/forms/product_listing.cfm?CategoryID=10223&desc=Indented+Kraft+Paper


So far, that's the least expensive place I've found. Also this paper is about 50% thicker than Kraft Paper I've gotten from other places, but the roll is 60 feet shorter. They also sell Corrigated Cardboard if you prefer that. You just need to go to their home page and browse their products if you want something different. I just prefer the Kraft Paper, because it's easier to put in and take out for cleaning.

Here's the links for the other supplies you might want to look at.

http://www.packagingprice.com/forms/product_detail.cfm?categoryID=10127&productID=1914

You might be able to use the corrigated cardboard alone.

http://www.packagingprice.com/forms/product_listing.cfm?CategoryID=10123&desc=Horizontal+Paper+Cutters

The cutter is a bit more expensive at this site, but the shipping is cheaper. Anyway it basically comes out the same.

You still might want to browse all their products. They have a lot of interesting stuff. :)

Here's another place I've used, but they're more expensive on shipping and some of their products.

http://www.uline.com/ProductDetail.asp?model=S-3652&ref=1961

http://www.uline.com/Browse_Listing_502.asp?desc=Paper+Cutters

http://www.uline.com/ProductDetail.asp?model=S-415&ref=1902

[Sunbino]

Ok In my Boaphile 422T I Just use one sheet of news paper on each side... would it be ok to just use one sheet of that bogus stuff =D Id prolly buy the roll because yes its cheaper that way. Thanks for the great Info.
Aaron

[Linda]

You're Welcome, :)

It's actually best to use 2 sheets if you're only going to use the Kraft Paper. I use the newspaper under it to keep it from sliding and to make it more absorbant. My boas would wad it up, when I just used 1 sheet of Kraft Paper. When I put the newpaper under it they don't. I only use 2 sheets of newspaper on each side. Then I put the Kraft Paper on top. I make it about 4 inches longer than it needs to be, so I will go up the sides a bit. My boas sort of like to poo in the corners and it just makes it easier to clean. I clean my cages twice a week. Using the Kraft Paper makes it faster and easier.

If you want to use just one sheet it might be better to use the corrigated cardboard paper.

Of course, your boas might not wad it up. It was mostly the males that did it with mine. It could have been, because breeding season was getting close and they were a bit more active.

You might want to experiment and see what works best for you. :)

[Missi]

Thanks for the info Linda. :)

My female actually just refused her meal yesterday, but that's almost typical of her at times. Sometimes I have to try for two days to get her to eat. She does seem a bit solid althought she's always been muscular so I'll just keep an eye out. As for the male, I've been picking on him recently for having a 'stubby' looking tail. I just associated it to being a little overfed and over weight.

I'll just get some more pictures going I guess. :) Love my new camera anyway and I'm always playing with it.

Thanks again!

[Linda]

OK,
I was reviewing my notes. I found another sign that a female might be ready. Actually, it's a sign for my boas. Not all boas will do the same thing.

Anyway....
I had a female in a cage with a male that was not ready for breeding. She was ready to be bred, but he was too young and wasn't showing her the attention she wanted.

This female started rubbing against the little male. She'd push him with her head and body. Sort of like a cat rubbing up against your leg. She tried as hard as she could to get this males attention, but he just wasn't old enough to care one way or the other. He's only a yearling. She continued this behavior, for almost 4 weeks, until I removed the little male and put a larger/older one in. She took to the more mature male right away and now they're breeding.

Having this smaller male in there actually stimulated her, so that she swelled slightly. Maybe it was folicles forming, but I'm really not sure. She got the firm roundness I look for as a potential sign of pending ovulation. It's not a pre-ov, it's just a roundness. At any rate, now she has a male that will get the job done and she's stopped this "cat like" behavior. She's just allowing the attention the new male insists on giving her. :)

[Missi]

That's pretty cute actually. I'll keep an eye on my pair and share any info or changes, but for now they're just enjoying the company of the other. Nothing more and nothing less.

[Sunbino]

Linda Thanks for the info on the Indented kraft Paper I bought a Roll of 24by 300 ft for like 34 with shipping. I put the paper in earlyer Let me tell you it looks alot better than Newspaper also now i dont have to worry about the Ink from the paper getting all over the bottom of my snakes. geez i swear i could pick up one of the two babies and read a whole story =D "jk" But they do get ink on them. Not anymore !!! Also i can already see its ganna be easy to cleanup. thanks again

[Missi]

My female just got done shedding a few hours ago and let me tell you, she's freaking gorgeous. Only bad part is my parents went out of town and took my camera with them, so I can't take any pictures. :(

Since this will hopefully be my first season breeding boas, I'm a little lost when it comes down to the hormone changes and such. What brings this up is the skin that I just got from the female is thicker than normal. It's very white, opaque, sticky and very rubbery. Usually her shed skin is thin, brown in color, and easy to tear. It's just really wierd cause I keep the skin and stretch it to lay flat, this skin is so thick and rubbery that even after I wet it down, the lips, nose, and most of the belly scale will spring back into form after I let go. Is this a normal thing to happen during the breeding season?

Also, the male is Still in the 'blue' phase of shedding. Usually he'll only have milky eyes for a day or two, this is day three and his eyes are even more opaque than yesterday.

I'm so lost. LoL. Could someone shed some light on the subject for me?

[Linda]

My boas always shed, shortly after they're put together. I personally think it's a hormonal thing that causes it, but I really don't know for sure. They do seem to be a bit thicker than their normal sheds, but I haven't noticed them being rubbery. Of course, I don't spend too much time checking them out. I normally toss these sheds in with my other breeding pairs. It seems like the scents from the skins drives them nuts. LOL.

I'll even use these sheds for females or males that aren't paired up yet. It seems to help stimulate them for breeding. Sometimes, but not often, when I put the sheds in with single animals it will cause them to start their shed cycle. It's sort of weird and cool at the same time. :)

[Missi]

I made a little note about it in my book just in case. My poor male still has yet to shed, he looks like someone wrapped him in shrink wrap. OMG is he ever protective over the female though. I got into the cage and took out the deck to get to them below and noticed he was laying on the female's head. As a concerned 'mom' I decided to get the male off of her. Ever hear a snake growl? Talk about creepy. He hissed at me a few days ago when I was in there to get the skin out, but apparently touching him while he's with his woman is a big no-no now. Of course it wasn't really a growl, I'm quite sure it was just another hiss, but he kinda gurgled a little at the same time and it sounded like a growl. :P Either way, I thanked him for not biting me, patted the female once more and told her she was on her own, then closed everything up before the male changed his mind about being 'nice' to me.

I'm beginning to think the males are the one's who go through PMS in the boa world. LOL!

[Linda]

Him being "protective" of her is a good sign. :D

In previous years, I did things differently during breeding season. This year I changed a few things and I'm having much better results. I'm also doing some of the things I've done in previous years. One of the things I've noticed this year is that the males are more protective of their females. It's sort of like, they've laid claim to that realestate (the female) and they don't allow trespassers. My boas protective behavior is a little more subtle though. My males will push my hand with their body or turn like they're might bite me. Sort of a non-aggressive/aggressive stance. When they're being protective, I leave them alone. :)

Anyway your male might start courting/breeding after he sheds. :)

[Missi]

I really hope so. Regardless I'll put up some pictures of both of them since it will be after some heavy sheds. The female is still as pretty as the day she shed, so I'm hoping the male will look just as good.

[Missi]

Here are some pics of the two after the sheds. The male's shed wasn't nearly as thick and rubbery as the female's, but he still took a while to get rid of it.

The first few are of the male while he was on top of the deck, and while he was running away from me to go hide underneath.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/lady_death84/Pet%20Pics/Admirayne/DSC00168.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/lady_death84/Pet%20Pics/Admirayne/DSC00171.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/lady_death84/Pet%20Pics/Admirayne/DSC00175.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/lady_death84/Pet%20Pics/Admirayne/DSC00176.jpg

I wasn't quick enough to get the deck out before he started guarding her again, so I took a few pictures to show how well he protects his girl.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/lady_death84/Pet%20Pics/Lieukreen/DSC00178.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/lady_death84/Pet%20Pics/Lieukreen/DSC00179.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/lady_death84/Pet%20Pics/Lieukreen/DSC00181.jpg

Complete top view showing how well he has her covered once he's settled in.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/lady_death84/Pet%20Pics/Admirayne/DSC00182.jpg

Side-by-side shot

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/lady_death84/Pet%20Pics/Lieukreen/DSC00183.jpg

The female going for a swim after finally getting away from the male.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/lady_death84/Pet%20Pics/Lieukreen/DSC00185.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/lady_death84/Pet%20Pics/Lieukreen/DSC00187.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/lady_death84/Pet%20Pics/Lieukreen/DSC00188.jpg

You can see her nubby tail in the first picture of her swimming. Normally I don't show it, but this time I decided to since it's so easily visible. When I first got her back in '02 I didn't know that I should put a thermostat on the undertank heat pad. Well, as she got bigger, she would start pushing the bedding out from under herself because the hide-out I gave her wasn't tall enough for her anymore. Dummy me didn't get her a new one right away, so she started laying on the bare glass where the heat pad was. She was cooked pretty bad when I found her so I was putting an ointment on her several times in a day to keep the wounds from getting infected. She healed completely but lost about an inch of her tail. So, this is my horror story and my reasoning in saying that ALL heat sources should have a thermostat to regulate them.

Last picture is of the male after the female left him, he just looked so sad.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/lady_death84/Pet%20Pics/Admirayne/DSC00189.jpg

Thanks for looking. :)

[Missi]

Things are starting to heat up I think. The male is following the female wherever she goes and will even crawl ontop of her as if he's thinking about courting her, but the moment he starts getting a gleam in his eye and a crooked grin, the female takes off again with him in hot persuit. It's getting bad enough that I've taken my camera and placed it next to the cage so I won't have to look for it should things start to happen.

I'll keep the updates coming and take pictures if I feel the need. :)

[lhcfireman]

He does look sad. She is playing the typical woman too. lol

Nice pictures by the way. She looks so light and tan next to him. Both are good lookers.

[Linda]

They look GREAT!!!

It's nice to hear that your guy is feeling "frisky". :D

Although your girl is playing hard to get, she'll come around. They always do.

Hopefully you'll get a chance to take some cool breeding pictures later.