421d ?

[stevo]

Is it safe to run 5 421D's on the same Ranco thermostat? They all have the smaller flexwatt, which I believe is ten or eleven inches wide.

[denny_rimes]

Yes!!

[stevo]

Thanks Denny!!!

[denny_rimes]

You are welcome stevo.

We have a couple stacks of 10 cages that each run on a Ranco with no troubles.

[cahrens]

I think this would depend on your definition of safe. If you want to be completely 100% safe then each cage should have it's own thermostat. If a piece of flexwatt shorts out in a cage that doesn't happen to have the probe in it you could have some overheating issues(gets too hot, melts plastic, burns house down, wife divorces you because she was against all those slimy snakes anyway, etc, etc). If it goes bad in the cage that does have the probe in it then your other cages in the stack may not get any heat because the shorted out one may get hot much quicker and turn off the heat. Another problem that could arise would be a piece of flexwatt that stops working. If it's in a cage without the probe then it's no big deal, but if it's in the cage with the probe then all the other cages will get hotter than you want them to because the thermostat will have the heat on full blast trying to heat up the probe.
If your happy with probably, 99% safe then you'll be fine with running the whole stack on 1 thermostat. If you want to be 100% safe, I'd go with individual thermostats.

[ChrisGilbert]

I think you are much better with one thermostat per cage. If that thermostat fails controlling 5 cages that is 5 animals at risk instead of one.

Not to mention, Ranco, and other on/off thermostats are NOT SUPPOSED to be used for flexwatt. Calorique, the company who manufactures flexwatt says explicitly to use proportional thermostats or rheostats. That means Herpstat, or Helix ONLY!

[The_Boaphile]

I think you are much better with one thermostat per cage. If that thermostat fails controlling 5 cages that is 5 animals at risk instead of one.

Not to mention, Ranco, and other on/off thermostats are NOT SUPPOSED to be used for flexwatt. Calorique, the company who manufactures flexwatt says explicitly to use proportional thermostats or rheostats. That means Herpstat, or Helix ONLY!

Really?

I know my experience is limited to the thousands of cages and racks I have built from plastic over these past seven years of Boaphile Plastics. That plus the hundreds I made for myself going back nearly 25 years now. I have been using the safest material on the market, that being Flexwatt, and exclusively the lower wattage Flexwatt going back almost 20 years now as it is even more reliable than the thermostat we sell and recommend. Whether purchased from us, or someone else, the Ranco thermostat is nearly as reliable as the Flexwatt it runs.

Since I have known and spoken to Jim, the tech guy at Calorique many many times about the reliability of Flexwatt and the safest ways to use it, I think I might have an accurate idea how to use Flexwatt and the best way to control the temps using that Flexwatt. I have decided some years ago after the failure of a different thermostat, to use the best and most reliable thermostat on the market today. The Ranco is that thermostat. In fact we at Boaphile Plastics are so obsessed with the safety of our products that we have consulted extensively with Jim and even had special lower wattage 4" Flexwatt specially manufactured for us with the safety of you and your animals specifically in mind. We and Calorique are all about the best products to perfectly take care of your animals without compromise ever. This is why Calorique, or Flexwatt and Boaphile Plastics are the innovators you can trust.

All that being said, I don't think that Calorique makes any recommendation regarding what type of controller to use. I think that is up to the end user.

[ChrisGilbert]

Your low wattage flexwatt may indeed allow for use of an on/off thermostat without issue.

However I have seen flexwatt come out of racks and cages people used with Ranco and other on/off thermostats and it rippled or the laminate pulled away from the element. John Locken recently had the flexwatt in his rack catch fire, not sure what thermostat he used, but I do know what rack company it was from. The rippleing and pulling away is caused from excess heat, and normally I'd say from a lack of a thermostat, but as I mentioned I saw it from thermostatically controlled elements. The issue is that the element runs hotter than the laminate is designed. The on/off thermostat allows full current to flow through which can cause spikes. Two other concerns are enclosing the flexwatt without allowing air to circulate around it, and allowing it to be kept at a constant temperature over 95 degrees. I know other rack companies (NOT BOAPHILE) have this issue. Where the heat is not placed well and flexwatt has to be run at 100 degrees to obtain correct temps in the tubs.

Jeff you know full well I love your Rhino Raxx, they are the only two racks I currently use. While I have personally found other cages that I like as they suit my needs better, but I have many of your cages in use without issue as well as my dad with his own collection. But I do stand by my thermostats.

[Jim O'Dowd/Calorique]

Hi Folks , Jim from Calorique here and I think I need to clearup a few things . Calorique has NEVER endorsed any one controller for Flexwatt heating element.
We make heating elements ! We leave the controller up to the end user because people install the heat in many different applications and they know what thier controller needs are best.
As to over heating ,the most common cause of over heating is over insulation for the watt density used. If you are useing the 3 inch 10 watt material you want very little insulation and maximum air flow under the bins
In a lot of cases less is better. Calorique has been testing elements at lower watt densities and we have found that approximately 10-11 watts per square foot in most cases is more effective if installed correctly ,insulated under the heating element and with the proper air flow. At this time Calorique is considering the discontinuation of the 3" 10 watt material. When you see any delamination or rippling that heating element has exceeded 180 degrees F.
You can bet there was no controller used if it got that hot.
The maximum run of heating element for the 10 watt is 44 ft. If you are wiring multiple shelves it is best to wire the short lengths in parallel and not 1 big long strip.
I can be reached at j.odowd@calorique.com for heating questions but ask Jeff about snake stuff.
BYe,
Jim

[ChrisGilbert]

Thanks for the info Jim!

[lhcfireman]

Good info here. I am still working on my cages and racks but will refer back to this for info in the future.

[Randy_T.]

Glad to see it straight from the horses mouth, thanks Jeff and Jim for posting to clear up alot of misconception that tends to get thrown around as written in stone.

[shik]

The on/off thermostat allows full current to flow through which can cause spikes. Two other concerns are enclosing the flexwatt without allowing air to circulate around it, and allowing it to be kept at a constant temperature over 95 degrees.

120VAC.... resistive load.... where would the spikes be coming from? i'm not sure if you've taken any electrical engineering courses but a resistive load does not create spikes. sure there's some inductance and capacitance due to transmission line effects, but nothing that will cause even a minor spike.

As far as the thermodynamics portion goes with the flexwatt placement, both thermostats are going to be putting out the same average power over time to reach the desired temps.

as far as thermostats go, even proportional thermostats use pulsewidth modulated signals to switch on and off the power to the loads, which you can essentially call an "on/off" type thermostat. sure it switches one and off at 120 Hz, but electricity travels pretty fast. with a 50% duty cycle your still hitting the 120V peaks, meaning full current is still being passed through the flexwatt.

In regards to heating elements, the controller is irrelevant. The only potential problem I see with the on/off type thermostats is the relay has a chance of getting stuck, but this has never happened to me personally or anyone else I've talked to.

Just wanted to add my two cents.

-Eddie Kim
Electrical Engineer
Instrumentation, Power and Control Systems Engineering

[The_Boaphile]

Correct Eddie. Thanks for the feedback. Spikes are an easy thing to blame when what is really at fault is the temperature controller. The temperature controller used by people who have had Flexwatt delaminate is what is to blame. Flexwatt will not delaminate till it reaches 180 degrees as Jim wrote. 180 degrees cannot be reached without the failure of a temperature controller or the absence of one entirely. The fact is, people will take short cuts such as using the cheapest rheostats available and or the cheapest thermostat on the market. This reality means that we do what is the safest thing we can do given that truth. We use 5 watt per foot 4" Flexwatt for our racks. This will get as warm as is ever required for any herps. As I mentioned before, we had Calorique custom run this new lower wattage Flexwatt for us. We had to order a very large quantity of it to get this run special, but it is well worth it for the added peace of mind. We have used this lower wattage Flexwatt in our racks for nearly two years after I had one customer admit to me that his Ball Room rack had been running plugged directly into the wall. I need to sleep at night so I opted for a wattage of Flexwatt that we calculated is as high as is necessary and no higher, given the extremely well built and designed products we are known for.

The reasons we recommend the thermostat we sell is that it is the one we personally use and use with confidence. We could sell the popular proportional thermostat on the market today. Anyone who sells cages or racks or supplies can sell those other thermostats. In fact we have been approached directly asking us to sell it. However, our own experience told us this just was not a good idea given the frequency of failure we experienced with them ourselves. So for me the Ranco is it and we will only sell products that I believe in. This is expanded in much greater detail on the cage site as well.

[ChrisGilbert]

120VAC.... resistive load.... where would the spikes be coming from? i'm not sure if you've taken any electrical engineering courses but a resistive load does not create spikes. sure there's some inductance and capacitance due to transmission line effects, but nothing that will cause even a minor spike.

As far as the thermodynamics portion goes with the flexwatt placement, both thermostats are going to be putting out the same average power over time to reach the desired temps.

as far as thermostats go, even proportional thermostats use pulsewidth modulated signals to switch on and off the power to the loads, which you can essentially call an "on/off" type thermostat. sure it switches one and off at 120 Hz, but electricity travels pretty fast. with a 50% duty cycle your still hitting the 120V peaks, meaning full current is still being passed through the flexwatt.

In regards to heating elements, the controller is irrelevant. The only potential problem I see with the on/off type thermostats is the relay has a chance of getting stuck, but this has never happened to me personally or anyone else I've talked to.

Just wanted to add my two cents.

-Eddie Kim
Electrical Engineer
Instrumentation, Power and Control Systems Engineering
Thanks Eddie, as you know I got out of engineering, lol. Missed those classes, would have been this semester.

[denny_rimes]

I am pleased to see that we have gotten some input from professional engineers to, hopefully, put this thermostat issue to bed for good! Thanks Jim and Eddie!!

I have used Ranco thermostats for several years with out a single mishap. The only time I ever had any issues with flexwatt overheating is when I tried to use a rheostat on a homemade rack and it heated to 135 deg. before I noticed it. Thankfully I did not lose any animals in the incident, but I sure did learn my lesson from the experience. Use a thermostat that works, and Ranco has done it for me.

[BigSqueezeBoas]

Does Anyone Know The Door/window Dimension Of The 421d? Length X Width.

Thanks