i would like your opinion on this...

[Jonathan_Brady]

http://www.boa-constrictors.com/com/constrictor/SurinamGuyanaE.htm

a couple of reference maps...

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/americas/guyana.gif

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/americas/suriname.gif

also, i have emailed a few people and told them that i think we should collectively refer to these animals as "northeast bcc" or "northeastern bcc" and just drop the idea of them being separate sub species and asked for their opinion. if definitive collection data can be provided, then it should be, otherwise, they are just snakes from either guyana or surinam, or, the northeast part of the bcc range! but then again, i've only been a part of this hobby for the past 10 months, so what do i know?

anyone have opinions here?  i know most everyone that comes here is a bci person, but hopefully i'll be able to stir up some discussion anyway!
later,
jonathan brady

[Patrick]

I think you might have something there. I wouldn't feel so bad if I were to breed a Suriname to one of my Guyana's. I still cant figure out why us here in America have no problem naming some snakes for their geographical areas and snakes from other parts of the world are not named as such. Some examples I'm reffering to is like an Eastern diamond back or a northern pine snake, which both can be found in different locations but aren't reffered to by the name of the state you can find them in. If the governments in Suriname and Guyana decided to merge,not that they will, but if they did would they have to re-classify the two boas and would everyones guyanas and surinames then be considered one and the same.

Recently I've been looking at Surinames and Guyanans to see if I could figure out any differences and just when I thought I could tell them apart I realized I can't.
I have seen a lot of nice Surinames that I would love to breed with my guyanans but until there are any changes I won't mix the two. That's just my opinion.
--Patrick

[Boamaster]

Just my opion:
To me there is a notable difference between the to snakes, Surinams seem to have a much
broader head than Guyanans, while Surinams are seen in some nice colorations, Guyanans seem to have a greater amount of Magenta coloration than Surinams. Surinames seem to be more red maroon, white and black. While most Guyanans seem to be Magenta/purple red, white, and brownish black. Surinams seem to have less coloration especially in and around the facial area, than Guyanans do.

Yes I also know and relies that Guyanans and Surinam Boas are exported from the same body of land. And that when one port on one side of the mountain is closed its basically a trucks drive to the other port on the other side of the mountain [aka port Surinam and port Guyana]. But I do believe for this reason that what know have come to call Guyanan Boas sometimes end up being called Surinam Boas because they were shipped out of Surinam, because the ports in Guyana were closed, and visa-a-versa.

While I have yet to knowingly bred these Boas together. I believe that breeding them together will do little to no harm. As long as it is not done as a common regular practice. because I'm sure that these Boas don't recognize invisable boarderlines setup by humans.


8) 8) 8)

[cb76]

while they can be very different in appearence, sometimes they look alike.

i personally feel that they should stay the way they are. until enough research is done, anyways!

its easy enough to call them bcc, suri or bcc guyana anyways.

[Randy_T.]

I agree until more research is done they should stay the same but I also feel personally that they are the exact same snake, I have never been able to regularly tell them apart and I feel anyone who says they can on a consistant bases is overly sure of there skills. but I will not breed the 2 together either until something concrete is proven also. Just my opinion

[CatMan]

There are three major groups of Bcc. The most common is the "Guiana shield" type. These come from Guyana, Suriname, French Guiana, Venezuela. There may be a lot a variation in these but they are all the same snake.
The second type is the Peruvian or southern Bcc. These are very different than the guiana shield morphs. They have a different head shape...much chunkier and square. Their bodies are also more square and taller.
The third is the Brazilian forms. Brazil is a huge country and there is a lot of variation in the Bcc here. Some of them from S. Brazil were once thought to be Bca but have keyed out to be Bcc.
I think all Bcc north of Brazil should simply be called Guiana shield red tail boas.
Some people also feel that the the Llanos and Orinoco river types from Venezuela and Colombia are very different from the other three. There may be some natural intergrading with Bci in this area.  

[CatMan]

In the past taxonomy was far from an exact science...based more on opinion than anything else. For reptiles outward appearance, scale count and skeleton structure were used to place species and subspecies into groups. But taxonomy has a new weapon..DNA analyses. Biologists are now using this technique to re-classify mammals and the results have been surprising. When applied to the boa constrictors DNA will shed much more light on their relationships.

[cb76]

hey catman!

i found what you said very interesting, and agree with it to some extent.

i have never heard of the term guyana shield, and i have never heard of it describing the northern boas as you have.

can you let me know where you found this out?

i do believe that there are many variations in boa constrictor by locale and its subspecies, but i wouldnt consider to put all the northern ones in one catergory.

i do agree that they have similar head shapes, skeletons, and stuff like that, but there are more differences that seperate.

phenotypically they can vary greatly, but there are wee-wee size and shape, pheromones, the recognition of the pharomones by the males, and so on....

i do believe there are many differences, especially by locale, and i think that these should be kept seperate when breeding.

each has there own unique look and individual beauty from being where they are. altitude, rainfall, food availablitly and type, all of this plays a role over time.

ialso know of one doc- gordon schuett- he is doing testing on the cellular, and dna level to prove there are differences in boa constrictor besides color!

oh yeah, i have personally seen 3 types of brazilian bcc alone! they are pretty different from each other too!

i am on a waiting list for one of the types- resembling the peruvian, except they dont yellow out at all.

about the other two types or morphs, i have no i dea when these people are going to breed them, or if they will.

thanks in advance for posting the info i asked for in the begining.

i love boa constrictor! they are my absolute favorite boid!
since i am trying to collect them all, i take this stuff seriously. i wouldnt want to ruin something nature built on account of me being stupid.

later

:'(

[cb76]

hey cat!

will here, its funny- i got the reply from the website, and it has the thing you wrote on it, but i cant find it here on the actual page!

anyways, i kind of know where you were headed! yrs ago i fell in love with boas and decided to have 'em all (4 real)

i have many locale variations of imperator starting from mexico down to colombia (not complete yet) and i have a few bcc's.

i really liked what you said in the whole reply, and i do think its its treu, thats why i will not cross. what you said with the suri bcc's is what i am doing now with the mexicans- my guys are all from mexico, but i have a couple from different locales, which are obviosly different- even to the eye. i would not cross them either!

i'd rather wait and see whats up.

anyways, if you can email me i would like to ask a few more questions. you can find it in my profile.

thanks

will

[cb76]

since the topic of suri's came up i wanted to post this gal for you to see....

what do you think....

http://photo.reptilehaven.net/albums/albuq39/suribcc1_f1.sized.jpg

http://photo.reptilehaven.net/albums/albuq39/suribc_f1_coil.sized.jpg

a atil shot....

http://photo.reptilehaven.net/albums/albuq39/real_red.sized.jpg

she is about the size of my arm now. she is also getting alot of red/ orange tint to her body now that was just gray, as seen in these pics.

hope ya likes

later

[Jonathan_Brady]

i think i'd like to have her at my place! VERY nice. from charles?
jb

[amazrnfrst]

I have mixed emotions on this subject. I for one don't know if I would mix breed a Guyana with a Suriname, until the two subspecies are classified as one. But there is a valid point that a lot of people out there, and I also share. And that is, these two species ultimately intergrade. With these countries being so close together, it is next to impossible to say they don't. Are a lot of these imports that are shipped here and put on the market for us to purchase actually what they are being sold as? Are they Guyana? Suriname, or Suriana ;D. A lot of the people that are saying they would not mix breed, could possibly have a mix breed :o. Who knows? I just hope someday everybody can come to a conclusion whether or not they are one in the same. And while I'm here I would like to post a photo of my Guya... wait I mean Surin...no, no, Guyana(I think).

Take care all, and no matter how you look at it they are all stunning animals, and I guess that's all that matters.

[amazrnfrst]

Another pic from post above. How do you post more than one pic at a time????

[obz]

wow, is it just me or does that snake above have ZERO medalions????

sweet looking... i have a snake bred by cypress creek reptiles that the father was guyana and the mother was suri... take a look and tell me shes a mutt. :)

http://www.pixill.com/sean/private/snakes/demonFace02.jpg

granted not the greatest pic...

i actually like the guyana sheild term for the north-eastern "group" of BCC.... and i cant imagine, unless we catch the animal ourselves, a 100%honest way to declare them pure guyana or suri... their lineage has to be so intwined.. and just to the east of surinam is a country called french guiana... how come we dont see animals from this country on the market? maybe we do and theyre just lumped in as suris?... it boggles the mind to think about it for too long. i wont peronally cross them until its agreed, but i think the guyana sheild classification is a great idea!!

$0.02