Guyana/Suriname Redtails

Alright the reason I bring this up is I used to believe that they were indeed a sperate type of boa, but recently I have been helping one of my friends who imports alot of boas. Anyways when we are lookin at B.c.c from Suriname we will find a fair number of them that should be called "Guyana" and vice versa also looking at the map the thier natual ranges over lap. Anyways I just wanted to get your take on this so lets have at it lol. If you have more info on this please post it.

[obz]

shame for less interest in this topic... i thought this was a BOA forum :P

(daryl, youve read this from the other forum but figured id toss my $0.02 up here too...)

peronally, i belive them (guyana, suriname, AND french guiana, north brazillian, and even eastern venezuala animals) to be the same locality.. in the ETB world they call this locality "northern"... and it seems fitting for the afore mentioned critters as well. but until theres an agreement in the industry ill keep my surinames from the guyana truck away from my guyanas from the suriname truck[}:)][;)]

http://www.globotur.com/images/samap.gif

as you can see the above mentioned areas encompass an area approximatly the size of peru... while peru is its own locality (sub-localities aside...ie iquitos etc). it would make perfect sence to 'lump' them together as northens and have suriname, guyana, N. Brazil, and french guiana (if they allowed export) to be the sub localities.

just my $0.02 ... this topic really interests me as a BCC keeper and would love to hear other opinions on the matter.

sean

[Randy_T.]

I have flipped flopped back and forth on my opinion on this..but after looking at evidence I think they are one and the same...

Later Randy T.

[trinitywolf]

Political borders mean squat to gentics or a pair of breeding boas. Unless there is a significant difference in the boas, and I don't believe there is, they are not different subspeices (real scientific, huh? lol)
I think this is a great topic. I'm disapointed there isn't more response. <shrug>

I love this kinda stuff, phylogeny(ssp.) if one of my fav subjects. I consider then one local of boa with vairialbe color pattern. So I will line breed for better colours ie: pink ones to pinky ones orthe typical "guyana" phase lol that what I'm gonna call them from now on! Guyana phase & Suriname phase what do ya think.

[CCS]

I am a morpher not a locality keeper but I do have one BCC and I cannot tell if it is Guyanan or Suriname, I have never seen a large difference in Guyanans and Surinames, they have the same features, people tend to call the less attractive ones Guyanans from what I've seen. Also the ones people say are from Guyana tend to be darker.
Chris

[obz]

i have to disagree.... while 'traditionally' guyanas may have a bit darker saddles, and show more purple than pink... i think any of these 'rules' fail to accuratley differentiate the two locales...

heres a nice 'dark and less attractive' guyana female...

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/18188lilithShed71603b-med.jpg

and a littermate thats equally 'less attractive' than a 'suri'

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/18188clean07-med.jpg

(not jabbing you mate,... but while it may be true that some people change the names based on some traits, it doesnt make it so, nor does it separate the animals....)

Any chance you get to show off your ladder tails :P

[obz]

;D ;D ;D

its was in the deffense of the guyanas,..... seriously!!! :p

he's right as far as them being generalizations.... but i feel largley untrue..

I aree with you Sean but my point was not that all "guyana" are darker then "Surinames" My point was that I think there are the same and I'm only going to breed like Suri/Guyana's together...So only pink one with pink ones get me? And I am partial to the Suri/Guyana's with pink sides. Hope that clears up my point.

[obz]

oh no worries man, i got your point all along and agree.
was just reinforcing it (and showing off....a little ;D).
it was ccs i was kinda trying to illustrate a clarification to.

Good stuff it's great to find a like mind...and in my case there arn't many ppl as crzy as I am :D

I can't blame ya for wanting to show off either brotha! If I had snake that nice I'd wear them a jewellery lol.

[CCS]

I know that there are many very good looking Guyanans, and I have seen many dark Surinames, I was just saying, from what I have seen Guyanans tend to be darker than Surinames. Is it a difference between subspecies? I don't believe so, I think people call darker ones Guyanans. I believe that they are the same subspecies as Surinames. I was not calling Guyanans ugly, in fact I really like some of the darker ones.
Chris

[JungleStruck]

Guyanas tend to be more of a purple color on the sides of them,and some tend to have wider saddles.Both are bred together in captivity and in the wild so now its even more hard to tell the two apart.Either way they are both beatiful breed of boas!

[mark30]

hi new to forum.just wanted to say i think there's a definite deifference between the two,the guyana's have more of purple sides,an the surinames have different shaped widow peaks or saddles.although i know a guy in germany who found boa in wild in guyana exactly same as suriname.mark uk

[Panama_Red]

Same type of boa, different locality. It's like saying their different because one is from a different city. :(

[Naja]

Have to agree with Panama, Boas are not distracted by political borders! I've got a Suriname female and I've been looking for a suitable mate for her, and I must say the more Surinams and Guyanans I saw, the more I've started to believe they are one and the same. I am really not into wildcaught animals, so it remains hard to prove the original locality of (grand)parents, but I've seen enough to stress my point of view. My Suriname has got lavender as well as red on her sides too, by the way, so that is not conclusive for the locality.

[obz]

i think there's a definite deifference between the two,the guyana's have more of purple sides,an the surinames have different shaped widow peaks or saddles.
im sorry, but this is just rediculous....
i posted the following info in another thread, but i think its worth repeating here

Any one here think they should be classified as the same local? I have seen people describe guyan boas to look more like your suri (peaks fadeing out tword the rear) and suris to have the bolder peaks. I have seen both patterns on both localitys and think the 2 locality are'nt different subspecies.

2 words, "guyana shield"...

this question about localities is where arguements can start and things get unclear and somewhat stupid. suriname was not a country until the 1860s or 70s, before that was one counrty encompassing suriname, guyana, and french guiana. it was just called guyana, after the massive natural highlands it was situated upon, the guyana shield. this area is about the size of peru (as far as square mileage, its actually smaller).

http://store4.yimg.com/I/pastpresent_1763_32251689

http://www.baldwinsmaps.com/maps/688.jpg

i know its a bit hard to read, but this map from 1836 is of guyana and north brazil, there is no suriname or french guiana.

http://www.baldwinsmaps.com/maps/687.jpg

here again in 1846... only one large country of guyana.

http://www.baldwinsmaps.com/maps/988.jpg

once again in the 1860s guyana still one big country (about the size of peru) but showing the territories of what would be come suriname, guyana, and french guiana. now, before this split up, i guess they were all guyanese boas huh? as there was no suriname, there COULDNT be surinamese boas. as well no french guiana... the north brazilians below and the venezulan boas to the south and west of guyana mustve been hard to keep out with those man made, imaginary borders there.

it was mentioned that these 'locality boas' look similar... yup, suriname, guyana, and french guiana all have boas that couldve all come from the same litter... AS DOES northern brazil and eastern venezuela and EVEN south eastern colombmbia. ALL of the boas from this region, could pass as littermates. i feel this makes them all the same locality. there are some subtle differences... but these differences occur IN ALL OF THESE POPULATIONS!! ever seen a dark, thick saddled suriname? i have. ever seen a nice, unspeckled light high peaked, thin saddled guyana? i have... ever seen a venezualen laddertail? i have. ever seen a nice colorful north brazilian? i have... theyre the same animal.

http://www.ci-suriname.org/csnr/images/kaarten/schild.jpg

the guyana shield

This large area, which includes all of Guyana, Suriname and French Guiana, as well as parts of Colombia, Venezuela and Brazil, is the largest expanse of undisturbed tropical rain forest in the world.
Underlying the entire region is a massive geological formation known as the Guyana Shield, a two-billion-year-old, Pre-Cambrian formation. For countless millennia, the Guyana Shield has supported a great diversity of flora and fauna. There are an estimated 138 unique tree genera in the region's lowland forests, and the overall level of plant endemism (species that occur only in a particular region and nowhere else) in the Guyana Shield is believed to be about forty percent.

http://www.mtsu.edu/~cdharris/honors/island-maps/guyana-shield.htm

http://www.ci-suriname.org/csnr/eng/guyanashield.htm

http://www.gsmp.org/ENGLISH/GS-HTM/B-INDEX.HTM


now there needs to be a word about localities and sub-localities (wich is what i feel suiname and guyana are). take 2 animals from peru. locality animals correct? BUT take one from iquitos, and one from pucallpa, well they are both local to preu yes? but different parts. so if you breed them together, they are still peruvian... arent they? though the offspring cannot claim to be from iquitos or pucallpa, they are still 100% full blooded, petigree peruvians.

this is how emerald tree boas and anaconda localities are broken down... its either a northern (guyana shiled) or a basin. this is how I THINK BCC chould be broken up.... the guyana shield should be the 'locality' and guyana, suriname, venezuela, french guiana, north brazil etc... should be the SUB-localities. for the time being, keeping with acceptable locality breeding... ill not breed my 'surinames' and my 'guyanas'... however, i think the issue needs to be re-evaluated by everyone. because there are no natural divides that keep any of the above mentioned SUB localities from mixing (the river (essquibo?) dividing suriname and guyana is easily raftable and i dont buy that a boa or a hundred boas couldnt get across to 'dillute' the other sides gene pool).
just my $0.02 on the matter, and i enjoying listeng to the ideas of others so, fire away :)

sean

[Randy_T.]

I can see your arguement and you have obviously put much thought into it so I can and do agree with your view on them.

I will stay out of this for the most part since I do not know BCC that much, or locality specific for that matter.

later

[HerperCCC]

Wow! Quite a persuasive point of view, Sean. You can tell that you have definitely looked into this subject "a bit" LOL! Your passion for these animals definitely shines through in this post, as always! Keep up the good work, and when (notice this was not an "if") I get into the "Guyana Shield" boas, we can start a "sublocale reclassification revolt!" (My way of saying I'm with you on this subject) :'(

[woodman]

I'm convinced. After all that how could you not be?
Miles

[obz]

I'm convinced.  After all that how could you not be?
Miles

well i coulda made it all up ;D, but search around on the geography of the area and the differences in the boas from different areas... google.com is a an invaluable rescource especially for these types of things. im by no means an expert on much of anything, its just my poinion and observations on the matter.

[goofykid87]

wow, very good point. but to go further into the subject, you could technically say that all boas are the same as bcc as well. i mean, before the borders were divided up about 500 years ago, they would all be the same bcc. i believe all boas except for some on the islands to be the same subspecies. the only reason that they look different is because the geographical distance between the two created small physical differences. kind of like natures way of selective breeding. i would like to faintly relate this to say... the difference in human races. natures selective breeding. same species. another example, one that fits the subject better. if you have a litter of boas, some are pastel, and some are normal. they are all the same subspecies and everthing. however, if you took an outstanding well colored boa from colombia, and a normal looking individual from...say...argentina(just picking random points) then most people might consider them different subspecies just because of political boundaries.
im sorry that im not that specific and that my thoughts arent better organized, but i think you guys get my general thoughts. ill post later on when i get my thoughts straight
-Jake

[woodman]

Goofy
The terminology you're looking for is "Darwinism".  Charles Darwin formulated the theory of evolution by studying Galapagos Island finches and scientifically proving that the finches were the same species dispite major differences in appearance and locality.

OBZ
I'm with ya. What you said makes absolute sense.

Miles