Hypos are Intergrades????

[Erich_Gaertner]

Intergrade: an intermediate form exhibiting a combination of the characteristics of two seperate subspecies of the same species  cwm15.gif. Recently there has been a lot of discussion on whether Hypos(OrangeTails/Salmons) are intergrades. How can an Imperator from Gamboa, Panama bred to a Colombian Imperator be an intergrade  ???? They are both IMPERATORS! Yes, they are from different localities, but they are both still IMPERATORS!!!! It amazes me how much the term intergrade is misused, even by BIG breeders who should know better! I had a BIG breeder tell me that he thought a Hypo was an intergrade. I asked him how an Imperator from Panama bred to an Imperator from Colombia is an intergrade. He stated that he thought that Central American boas are different enough from Colombians to warrant a new subspecific identity. That's fine, I disagree but he's entitled to his opinion just as I am! However, to use your Opinion as fact when the Scientific community clearly disputes your opinion is WRONG and VERY IRRESPONSIBLE! IMO, attitudes like that are what help to fuel all the misinformation that is out there  >:(! If every boa that "Looked" different from another boa from a seperate locality were given a new subspecific identity, we would have many dozens of new subspecies! Wow, if  you think the Taxonomy of Boa Constrictors is messed up now, what would you think if there were dozens of new subspecies  cwm32.gif? All this talk about intergrades and I never hear anyone mention the amount of variability in Boas! I have seen great variability within litters of boas. These babies are from the same parents, yet they display a tremondous amount of differences. Since they look different, should they be given a different subspecific identity? I think not!  Just because a boa has a different "Look", does not mean it deserves a subspecific identity all it's own! Variability is commonplace with Boa Constrictors. This is one of the many reasons I love them so much :)! Obviously if you took the time to read this, you love Boas too! Agree or Disagree, I would love to hear what you think! Remember, No Flame Fest here ;D!
Erich

I agree with you 100%. I also believe that the word HYBRID is used too freely. I have been in many heated discussions about hybrids for which I decided that I won't anymore. If using the word hybrid in it's true sense than yes I would say I am against them. For instance a Kingsnake crossed with a Cornsnake in my opinion is an integrade or just a cross, but not a hybrid. They are all Lampropeltinae subfamily of colubridae. My opinion and yes that has nothing to do with Boas, but the same thinking can be applied to Boas. Yes we should keep alot of locality specific breeding programs going, but we shouldn't be upset over a C.A. bred to a Columbian. Again like you said, lets not have a flamefest.

[morti]

I also agree Erich.

I use ATB's as my sticking point for that. These snakes can have babies that show many different color paterns within the same litter that the parents simply do not show. A good friend of mine just had a litter of ATB's that are from 2 gardin phase animals. They greater percentage of his babies are halloween phase. I wonder how many people would say that they should be a different SSP. :-)

[Sojourn]

Erich,
That is one awesome boa you got there!!! cwm4.gif

I definately agree that, by the definition in your post, they are not integrades. Given I do not have years of experience backing my opinion, but I do not believe that just because they came from two different localities along the Imperator range, that breeding them together is integrading them.

I think that they carry an amazing genetic coloration, and that by the virtue of its own beauty, has instilled a place for itself in the Boa Constrictor Imperator world...

What about a Hypo to a BCC breeding? This would be an integrade I think... But would it be wrong? Are people out there being prejudiced with Boas? Personally, I think THAT breeding would have some AMAZING potential!!!

cwm32.gifOr think... Surinam Albino Sunglows!cwm32.gif

Good Lord I've gone crazy!!!LOL

[Erich_Gaertner]

Hey Mr Sojourn,
I agree with you that offspring from a Hypo to BCC breeding would be an intergrade. Yes, I think it is wrong! Of course that's just my opinion and we all know what they say about opinions :)! I started this thread not because I have the answers, but because I have a ton of questions! I like many think the Taxonomy of boas is inadequate! Unfortunately I don't believe it will change anytime soon! IMO there just isn't enough $$$$ or interest in the scientific community to warrant a reevaluation! We Boa Freaks are ultimately the ones who are left out in the cold! Without the $$$$ the Taxonomists don't care and the boas certainly could care less! So WE who care the most about these AWESOME animals are left to pick through data/field notes that in some instances date back to the 1700's! As someone who has always asked why (to many a teacher's disproval ;D), this is VERY frustrating! As long as Boa Constrictor Taxonomy remains as is, this debate will never end!
Erich

[Sojourn]

I agree that from what I have learned --mainly from "The Boa Constrictor Manual" and a few other rather more heated discusssions on the subject in other places--that the taxonomy of boas could use some revamping.

I also think there is a responsibility to maintain locality specific animal breeding programs. On the flip side of this I have seen pictures of really nice looking integrades. Being very new to the herp world in general, I have yet to form a complete opinion on whether or not integrading is right or wrong.

Any wisdom you could guide me towards on this subject would be most appreciated.

cwm4.gif I LOVE BOA CONSTRICTORS!!! cwm4.gif

[Erich_Gaertner]

Sojourn,
Let your conscience guide you to your decisions! Do what makes you happy! After all, that is why we keep these SPECTACULAR animals-Right?  When making YOUR decision on intergrades, don't take my OPINION or anyone elses as fact! Weigh the consequences and make YOUR own decision! There really is no Right and Wrong on this issue! I think intergrades are wrong, but this is America where we are Free to make our own decisions and form our own opinions! Make your own based on your beliefs, if my OPINION factors into your decision-COOL! If not, we agree to disagree :)!
Erich

[Sojourn]

Hey Erich,
Personally I think there is enough variance and beauty in the BCI world to keep me and my wife interested AND busy for the rest of our lives! cwm32.gif.... And if we ever expanded to dealing with BCC's, my preference would be to breed them to their own kind.

But this will not stop me from admiring what comes from the breeders out there who will. Beauty is a hard thing to deny. cwm32.gif

In everything that I have managed to read on the subject, I have found no one to actually say "It is wrong because_________?".... I DO WONDER about a long-term negative economic impact on breeding in general.... or what is going to happen when there is TOO MUCH diversification in the market....

If nothing else I have learned a valuable lesson about opinions. cwm11.gif

Thank you for the great conversation, Erich.

... Jesse (Sojourn)

[cb76]

wow!
i am actually surprised to see this. not trying to start a war here but i just am surprised.

well, most hypos on the market today have been crossed with colombians anyways.

i do firmly believe that an animal from panama, mexico, belize, colombia- although all bc imperator all show different characteristics. yes they have similar saddle counts and ventral scale counts but physically are different. through evolution being seperated by land and time have developed their own looks.

tell me when you look at a sonoran desert mexican boa, looks anything like a colombian.

i believe that that may not an intergrade by sub specific status, but it definitly is by locale!!!

animals should be preserved for natural beauty and not crossed.

thats my belief on the situation, and as a collector of boas, i only buy boas that are 100% pure in subspecific status and locale. his cuts the sellers down buy alot!
i also love morphs of boas, but i will never cross them with my pure animals. i believe you should buy what you buy, not buy a hogg island thats been crossed with a mexican or colombian.

are you gonna say that hoggs are the same as colombians and its ok to cross these???

to each his own i guess. again, not starting a war. just an opinion representing the other side.

I don't believe all hypo's are integrades or hybrids! I do also disagree that there is nothing we could do to change taxonomy. We have the biggest Boa Breeder in the world here in Jeff Ronne and he could do that if he wanted. All he would have to do is write a paper as to why the changes should be made with valid points and publish it. I'm sure Reptiles Magazine would be glad. Guess what?? The reptile world would call them by that name. We decide not some scientist with his head up his... well you know. If I decide to call my Albino Black Ratsnakes "Buttered Biscuits" than that is what they are. If Jeff was to do this the scientific community would have to change them in other books as well because everyone would be going by that. Can you think of anyone else that should be the one to change the taxonomy of the Boas. Hey we can add BCX and BCW and BCZ to the puzzle. Hey maybe that would be a start on correcting that situation. Maybe that would be extreme, but lots of folks would probably be happy. With a little research cwm15.gif I'm sure we could all come up with a way to help whoever goes to the forefront with intelligent ideas. 8)

[cb76]

for a new morph or some new characteristic brought about by selective breeding- then yes, you are right about that. there are so many people out there changing names n stuff to make it sound more appealing to make the buck.

i wasnt reffering to morphs so to speak. i was reffering to the locales of various boa constrictor within the same taxa, prime example being the many locale if bci.

there are beautiful boas out there, and what you can do by selective breeding is absolutely amazing! and forget about it- the hypo under erich's name is something i want to buy soon, or as soon as he has babies.

this is about crossing the locales, i apologize but i dont believe in that at all. by doing so there is so much being lost. i used the hogg island boa as an example. i see too many people crossing them with colombian boas nd still selling them as hogg island.

look at the hoggs, beautiful light pink and prange boas with light brn/ orange saddles...

http://photo.redtailboa.org/albums/album-of-hoggs/hogga_a1_2.sized.jpg

that is a hogg

this is a colombian.....

http://photo.redtailboa.org/albums/album-of-colombian-boas/ribs_stail.sized.jpg

yes, similar and both bci, but very different.

like i said before, i collect boas- i am currently trying to get boas from all locales. these have to be 100% or they simply are not what they say they are.

does jeff ronne think this too??? just asking???

another thing, i engaged in a conversation of this with a "breeder" at the reptile show who was producing nothing but crap. he had equadorian boas and colombian crosses (you cant tell me they are the same either) and that was his excuse. they are the same imperator.

anyways, thats all. i still would love to hear what all think on this situation....

i wanna see the back lash i get, i am launching a site as soon as its done. its all about true boas.

later guys.....

[Erich_Gaertner]

cb76,
You will get no attacks or backlash from me! I knew when I started this thread that there would be disagreements, I just hoped the discussion would remain civil! However, you have me very confused by some of your statements ???. First of all let me get this out of the way, NO Hoggs and Colombians are NOT the same! My argument was never about the breeding of Hogg Island to a Colombian! I would never argue this, because I personally think this is wrong! I would NOT do this!!!! My argument was about Hypos(OrangeTails/Salmons). The first of which was collected in Gamboa, Panama and the true matriarch of all Hypos(OrangeTails/Salmons). If you would like to check out a map and hear Jeff's comments on this topic, check out Boa Constrictor Pictures page 3 "The History of Hypos in the US." I think the Hogg Island/Colmbian breeding as an argument against the Panamanian/Colombian breeding is a poor example! There's just no comparison! Go get a map and check it out for yourself cwm15.gif, it's right there for you! You stated that you "only buy boas that are 100% pure in subspecific status and locale." What exactly do you mean by this statement? Using your Hogg Islands as an example, it is my understanding that Hogg Islands are collected on more than one island. How do you know which island your animals were collected from or which island their realatives were collected? Surely you would agree that a different island would represent a different locality! Wouldn't you? I'm also confused by the fact that you would like to own a hypo, but say that your are against locality crossing(which a Hypo clearly is). Did I misunderstand you? Again, my intentions of this post is not to Flame you, but rather have you clarify some things you wrote. In fact if you go back and read my posts, I think you will find that many of my feelings are much in line with yours ;)! I look forward to your response!
Erich Gaertner  

[Erich_Gaertner]

Hey TC,
I agree with you that Jeff has perhaps the most insight into these animals we love! After all, his "Database" is second to none ;D! However, is a paper written by Jeff really going to change the whole Taxonomy of Boa Constrictors? If it were this easy, don't you think it would have been done by now? I'm EXTREMELY IGNORANT about just what criteria are involved to give/change a Taxonomical identity! I know that scale counts are commonly referred to when determining a Boas identity. But even theses counts overlap between some subspecies! Saddle count is extremely variable as well! Another problem I see with a paper written by Jeff, is the vast majority of his animals are captive bred. Do these animals accurately portray their wild counterparts? I certainly don't have the answers, but I like you believe there has got to be a better way to classify Boa Constrictors! Regardless of whether changes are made or not, you can't please everyone!
Erich

I must also add that it is my belief that you will not get 100% locale unless you go and collect them yourself. How many of the people exporting out of S.America are just filling orders. I mean if you think about it with all of the color changes and such a BCI can be put off as a BCI. I've even seen BCI's being passed off as BCC by the importers. You can't trust it unless you do it.

[cb76]

hey erich!

nawww, i didnt say i wouldnt own a beauty such as your boa, or any other morph of boa for that matter, i just wont cross them with the animals that i know to be 100% in my book.

my hogg island boas are 2nd generation from cayos de los cochinos, the original animals imported by dr.gordon scheutt, a herp proffessor at ASU. he has multiple animals and and bred them. about 10 yrs ago, rick davis (upstate ny) purchased several animals (4 seperate bloodlines worth). those were the first babies produced by the original animals- rick has since grow them out and bred them, i now have 4 blood lines of babies. 2nd generation cb in america with parents direct from hogg island.

i am also i the process of getting some others from the area, but none are considered hogg island.

i have several business contacts and know several people in other countries, as colombia, peru, equador, costa rica. alot have business and deal with the importing of lots of stuff.

my friend james i an importer exporter, and soon so shall i. that is my only way to be sure of what i get!!! thats why i'm doing it. i have my reciepts of country of export on some of my animals- i also have the pleasure of working with people over seas who can legally buy from the countries because they dont have the same deals and restrictions as the US does.

in the US i have the biggest pleasure of working with Dennis Sargent- who i am buying 30 animals alone this year (depending on how every one takes), there is also keith macclugage, rick davis, gus rentfro, and a few other who deal in locale specific animals- so yes, the animals are where they come from.

when my site is complete i will have every thing set up. i do breed occasionally and do provide the customer with a full pedigree complete with pics of the parents, grand parents, and more if i can. there are only a few people (including jeff ronne, i have 2 boas he produced- you can see 1 in my lil' pic by my name) who i dont have the complete info from, and these were bought before i started doing what i am doing.

i spend lots of money i making sure i buy what i buy. some animals are questionable- i work with several people with whom i hold great respect for and trust.

when i buy animal i get all the info. i also need to see proof. if i see none, i dont buy. simple.

that goes for my regular animals, not my morphs. i know there are no 100% true locale morphs.

about the hogg island x colombian n stuff- thats just going off of what you said.you said imperator x imperator is not an intergrade. maybe i mis-took what you said, but thats what i have gotten out of it.

i see waaaay to often guyana x colombian crosses, guyana x peruvian crosses, and now there are a bunch of people who are breeding surinam to colombian to get the albino gene in there- selling the babies as surinam! that is wrong. not the big guys either like kahl n stuff. this had been going on here in NY for a while.

those are obvious crosses, but i also believe crossing locale reguardless of taxa is still wrong. just as you have agreed with col x hoggs.
i see too many CA boas being crossed with colombians- being sold as colombians. you're a breeder you know what an equadorian saddle looks like. now picture that with colombian saddling. these animals are dark- in a bad way- just bbeing crossed by people who dont know any better.

thats what i meant. i apologize if mis-took you.
but now i am confused- what about the whole imperator thing??? you said imperator and imperator reguardless of locale is not a cross, but you agreed with me on the hogg issue??? what about equadorian x colombian, belize, x colombian or any other for that matter.
i know what you meant about about the term being mis-used, is this it too??? if so i am sorry again.

but i fully believe crossing locale, is still a cross- even if they are still imperator.

especially since there is a huge loss of habitat.

i am not saying i am a pro,nor am i comparing my self to you or jeff, or anyone for that matter- because i still have a lot to learn. i have been doing this for 11 yrs. thats it. but i do hang out at the zoo, talking to the dr.s- i go and hang out at NYU, and columbia and poke my head in every now and then. i am ike a tumor when itcomes to people. i try to hang with the herpetologists and i ask as much as i can. i am also trying to volenteer at the bronx zoo. still no luck.

i dont know the hobby history because i was not around when most you and the rest of these guys were making history.

ahhh..... this is too long of a babble. what i was trying to say was i do my research before i buy my boids.

did this answer the questions???

if what you mant was just the hypo thing i know. i thought you meant all.

i am kind of a boa purist but i love the morphs!!!!- i am looking at that boa under your name and i am completely in love!!!!
i just gotta have it. i just wont cross it with my 100% colombians- i would buy another hypo of equal or better beauty and breed them!!!

lemme know whats up!!! and lemme know if confused you by all this babble.

later  :)

I will go back to my original point. A port reciept is only as good as the honesty of the exporter. You can go to Columbia and gather and then go to Guyana, and then a few others and ship them out of the same port. That is exactly what happens. I agree that with the Boas we need to be very careful, but even if you know the exporter, they buy from the collectors who are not always honest. I suggest that one just buy their Boa from a reputable breeder like Clay, Jeff, or Pete Kahl. 8)

[cb76]

i happen to deal with great importers and exporters.
i can also tell the difference between boas and can see an intergrade (most of the time)

i also deal with awsome breeders who make sure too.

i know what you are talking about with the people and the process of the export business's but i also know the people whom i have dealt with. i am not sorry and continue to do so with them.

not knocking these guys, because i personally have bought a couple of extremely beautiful boas from jeff, and will buy more. i also see what clay has produced and i am impressed. i cant wait to see erich's site up and running- he has got some beauties!!!! but i do business with lots of people.

oh.... just another point, i dont buy cb boas from my importer/ dealer- just direct from country import. he buys cb animals from all over the US, but as you can see- i dont trust any one, i dont care who you are.

this is my goal- as sick as it may seem to some people, its still my goal. i am trying to collect all boas from all locales- this is why i put soooo much effort and money in doing this. thats why make a big stink about a boa. if you say you got a guyana, it should be from guyana.

anyways, my school of thought and how i do things. i am also trying to get my own licences for various aspects in this because i want what i want.

[LukeUK]

I agree with cb76 although thay are all classed as imperators(equadorian, belize, columbian, hoggs),thay should not be crossed thay do not cross in the wild so we should not do it, thay are mutts or moggis, it is also increasingly difficult to sell anything that is crossed over here in the UK so that is also another reason not to do it, a lot of rep shops over here have realized this and try to sell there mutts under a local name, or even as BCC's,
my local specialist if you could call them that has 7 boas in, all selling as a specific local, I can tell the differance and thay are all crossed, I don't however belive this applies to the colour morphs as thay are manafactured by us and highly unlikly to happen natrualy in the wild. you buy a colour morph for what it is as you buy a pure columbian or hoggs for the same reason.

[Erich_Gaertner]

cb,
I want to clarify a few things.First I am NOT some big breeder with many many years of experience or hundreds of boas produced! I acquired my first boa in 1995. I produced my first litter of boas in 1999. I have been fortunate enough to produce four additional litters since. As you can see, I'm no Big Expert or Pro making history! I consider myself a wannabe breeder and dream of producing hundreds of Boas, imagine all those "Picks of the Litter cwm4.gif!" I own ONLY Colombian BCI and Hypos that we know are Panamanian/Colombian BCI! That's it! Nothing more! I used to own a Corn Island boa, but sold her some years back! Sorry to bore you with this mini background, but I felt it necessary! Secondly, I for one don't think any of your responses were babbling! I appreciate you taking the time to add to this conversation and I respect your opinion! I also appreciate the trouble you go to to try and assure the locality of your animals. Thirdly, I never said that an Imperator bred to an Imperator regardless of locale is not a cross. I said it is not an Intergrade! I use the definition of an intergrade as the one stated in that post. Now to try and answer some of your questions and ask some of my own. Your right , I agree that breeding a Hogg to a Colombian is wrong! However, I fail to see how you can compare the breeding of a boa from an island(s) off the coast of Honduras and a Colombian to a boa from Gamboa, Panama bred to a Colombian boa! Panama and Colombia are neighboring countries seperated by a political boundry unrecognized by any boa! Not only are the Cayos de los Cochinos(?sp) a considerable distance away from Colombia but they are seperated by the Carribean! I believe that it would be POSSIBLE for a boa from Panama(Colombian side of the canal) to naturally cross with a Colombian! I think it would be nearly IMPOSSIBLE for a Hogg and Colombian to naturally cross! Since my non-hypo boas are all Colombians, I cannot be concerned about localities! There is absolutely no way I could possibly know the locale origins of my Colombians! IMPOSSIBLE! I know they are all Colombian BCI and that's about it! You mentioned not breeding morphs to your 100% Colombians in your post. What exactly do you mean by 100% Colombians? I don't understand this statement! Do you mean that your Colombians are all from the same locality? If so how do you know this? I agree with TC that unless you collected the animals yourself, you really can't be 100% positive of their origin. Sure maybe your importers are honest, but do you really think the actual collectors are? I mean do you really think they care about honesty? Or do you think they care more about getting their pay and putting food on the table for their family? It seems to me that the latter makes more sense! Remember, we are talking about a developing third world country. I'm babbling now and this post is long enough, so I'll shut up! Good Luck with the website, I'm looking forward to checking it out! :)
Erich

[cb76]

hey erich
glad you answered. i figured thats what you meant. its the same thing like guyana and surinam- a political border. i know what you mean about intergrade now. i agree.

heck, from what i have seen in the few pics you posted you have an amazing collection- i am already drooling over possible babies!!!
just looking at you collecion i figured you were doing it for a while. i see breeders (so called any ways) producing nothing but crap. and doing it for yyyeaaaarsss!

you are so right about about the collectors and money leading them. all i can say is i really try to make sure, i deal with people who try to make sure- alot who are actuall friends!!! and you should come over for some beers- you'll see the ton of peruvians and colombians i know!!! these people go back and forth from here to there. i know alot of these people for at least 15 yrs. so i trust them. when they say they have animals from brarranquilla, they have animals from there. i also cross check this with whats there. they have home videos n stuff of grandmothers sweeping off giant constrictors off their back porches!!!!

with the colombians i have 2 types. the northern ones are more yellowy and brown with orange brown tail- really pretty! i also have southern colombians down the bottom- close to peru- they are silver grey with redtails. the ones i have also share venter counts and saddle counts of bcc (possible intergrade with the peruvians or maybe braziliansfor that matter)

dennis sargent has a bunch of animals he collected n stuff from these places. he says that there is a colombian bcc. all my guys have 19 saddles to the vent n stuff. i am also buying alot of his babies he produces this year.

well, thats all i mean with the not crossing n stuff. i wont even breed my brarranquilla animals with the southern colombians. i think there is an obvious difference. saddle/ venter count and coloration wise. its based on my animals and several other collectors. and not a real study, but anyone with eyes can see.

all i do is try really hard to get what i get. i see a difference with my colombians and the others being produced in the hobby.

what i meant about the crossing is just that. i wont cross.

i really get annoying when trying to find out my animals back round. i really mainly deal with wild type animals- either wild collected or 1st or 2nd generation cb.

i trust the people i deal with alot!!! so i gotta go with that.
alot have been to these places, live in these places for part of the year, and collect their own animals!

right now i am trying to get mu uncle max who lives in the dominican republic to give me his boas, but i dont think its gonna work out. he has some nasty lil' clouded boas.
i am currently trying to get those too!

i dont know, thats just me i guess. i know lots of these countries neighbor, but i still wont cross.
right now i have 2 (3rd on the way) locales of mexican bci- but i wont cross them with each other too! they are in mexico, but i have black ones, orange ones, and i am trying to get a yellowy kind.

i just love boas, so i am really trying to get them from all these places (wich is incredibly hard!!), i hvent even told you about my epicrates cenchria subspecies- that is turning out to be a bag of worms, or my insular epicrates from cuba, haiti, caiocos isl., etc..... some say there are 8 subspecies of haitian boa alone!!!

that is gonne take years for me to do this.

anyways, this IS a babble. i had alot to drink tonight and need sleep.

hey, jeff saying you're good is like steve vai telling me i'm good on the guitar!!! i respect that. you definitly have some awesome boas. maybe you can sell me some hypos that look like what you have!!!!

so in a nut shell, i know people from these places- and people who actually went there. i really do try to make sure!!!

hey, i am actually making a trip to go down to costa rica, peru and colombia over the summer!!! i really hope that works out cwm4.gif
i will try to bring stuff home. by then i hope to have my licences n stuff.
i couldve went 2 months ago to my friends wedding, but they said i would be murdered out there!

uh ohhhhhh....... cwm8.gif

[Erich_Gaertner]

cb,
I appreciate the compliments! I take great pride in my boas, unfortunately the majority of boas I own were produced by others! My goal is to change that! Yeah, the $$$$ is nice, but the "Pick of the litter" is the MOST rewarding thing for me! I also don't have the BIG $$$$ to be throwing down on all the morphs I would love to own! So, I figure I'll try to produce my own! The Pastel Dream below my name IS my Pride and Joy! Yeah, she is Smokin', but I really love her because I produced her! Obviously she was THE Pick of the Litter ;D! In regards to your Colombians, you said you have 2 types. The southern type, is that also known as the Letitia(?sp) type? I have heard that they might be a natural intergrade between Colombian BCI and Colombian BCC.
Are these what you are referring to? If so, any additional
info cwm15.gif would be greatly appreciated! Man, if you do go to Central and South America, PLEASE take a good camera and take lots of pics! Then post those pics right here on the "Tank!" Again, Good Luck with the website and please let me know when it is up and running! Now it's my turn to drink some beers and maybe a few shots as well cwm32.gif!
Erich

[cb76]

thats exacly were the are from.

i havesome awesome wld type animals. perfect saddles, even coloration- and i will breed those in another couple of years.

i know what you mean about th morphs!!! the pick of the litter is wort more than any one an imagine- even the normals that i keep back i would never get rid of, for any price!!! i can only imagine those beauties you have in real life!!!

you will produce some amazing creatures, dont you worry!

i am talking to paul of genzero, inc. he will behelping me with the site. i had one done that i did, but it was sooo ghetto. i scrapped it. i checked a few guys out, and tried to do a php nuke version my self- but also too ghetto.
i had a friend do an awesome version but it was waaay over the top with graphics n stuff, but took too long to load. he kinda got mad at me when said it was too much.

so i am going with genzero. he said he can write me some easy to do software so i can do my own editing n stuff of pics and content. plus he handles everything. so thats what i am gonna do. its a lil slow but we're gonna move on ahead real soon. plus the fact that i am terrible camera shot doesnt make it any easier. i want to get someone to do it for me.

about that trip! i really do wanna go sooo bad, so i am really trying tomake it work. i know people in those countries so i can stay wit them and their families. the worst is coombia- the home of my favorite boas!!! tey have some war going on and i dnt wanna get kidnapped by gorillas (is that how you spell that or guerilla)
i am am american with puerto rican decent, but cant speak alick of spanish and i am sooo new york, its not funny! they said its likely i would get kidnapped and held for ransome. thats what they do.

victor's family lives in the jungles and in the cites, to get back from either you have to take these poor roads, long and unprotected- they say any thing can happen there. i believe him too! so i wanna go down as a group, and stay in the "jungle" area and look for some snakes!!!

i am also trying t find out if and how i can collect my own. i wouldnt tke a full adult, but if i find one rather young, i will try. i wanna do everthing legally!!

back to web sites, really cant wait tosee yours when done. will you hav any babies available this or next year??? those are really pretty.

i will get some info to you on the leticia boas. i have done all my venter counts, saddle counts, body shape, markngs and color. i am getting some from dennis sargent this year. i am ctually gtting 34 believe it or not. he may cut down so this is my shot (and what a hard shot it was to get it!!) so i dont want to blow it.
that is what i m preparing for now.

anyways, i love this place- it has smilies to fit everything!!! even last night!

later

will

[cb76]

oh yeah,
pleae excuse the missing letters that may pop up. i have a busted keyboard.

[Erich_Gaertner]

Hey Will,
How about posting some pics of those Leticia boas! I would love to see them! :o
Thanks,
Erich

[cb76]

will do!
i will go to where i keep my snakes either tommorow or monday and take some pics.

hope they come out allright :-/