Tylan and RI question for Jeff Ronne

[BigOz]

Hey Jeff,

Last year you posted a recipe for the use of Tylan (I believe it was Tylan) to treat RIs. This post was a response to a request by Jeremy Stone. I tried searching Kingsnake with no success and I lost the orriginal post that I saved on my old computer. Could you put that info here? A friend of mine has a Boa with a nagging RI that won't go away and wanted to know the recommended dosage. I believe you had a pretty effective treatment.

Thanks,
Oz

[Doug]

Hi,
 This info is really important to reptile owners because some RI'S do not respond to Batril or other antibiotics, because the infection isn't from a regular bacteria, but a mycoplasma
{Mycoplasma Pneumoniae - Mycoplasma are small bacteria that do not contain a cell wall. They are difficult to grow in culture media and their growth is slow. The are unidentifiable in gram stains of sputum samples.} 

Many vets forget that this can occur in pythons and occasionaly boas.  psps (human note) if your not getting over a really bad cold and have been coughing for months guess what you could have....and it dont grow well in sputum cultures....
  I tried to find out if their is a reptile consortum for vets to keep current on the latest treatments for reptiles. Most vets use that trial and error and many are not succesful, better to find a vet with an excellent track record saving sick reptiles
http://www.herpvetconnection.com
   

     
Doug

>:(  
ps to answer the next question mycoplasma note: isnot, TB or AFB thats a different type of infection by an acid fast bacillius. There are numerous different bacteria/virus/mycoplasm's/AFB,and other things that infect humans and animals , this was to help identify a possible cause of resistant infection's in pythons and boa's that may be over looked , I would still follow normal practice's for treating RI.  Tylan is a last resort treatment for animals that do not respond to normal and repeat treatments for re-occuring RI.
 Mycoplasma is very difficult to DX in humans many times we treat the symptoms without knowing for sure its the cause of resistant URI  that doesen't respond to normal treaments..It keeps re-occuring after  treatments with the usual antibiotics...
   

[BigOz]

Thanks for the info Doug. I didn't know that Boas were also prone to mycoplasma bacteria. This is the same family of bacteria that causes TB in humans, is it not? Anyway, I hope Jeff does get a chance to post that info. I had saved the post, but I lost it when I replaced my computer.

Take Care,
Oz

[Steve_M.]

I wrote it down Tylan 50mg/kg sub q every 3 days but I have always wondered where would I get Tylan if I needed it?

[DaveC]

How long do you treat a snake with 50mg/kg every 3 days?

Thanks

[DaveC]

Oh yeah, here is a source for tylan.

http://www.petsnmore.com/home.asp?searchstr=tylan&s=137

[DaveC]

Here's a couple more links:

http://www.theboaforum.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Care&action=display&num=1022662819

Another reptile care site suggests 25mg/kg:
http://crinaustin.home.att.net/HealthAndReferences.htm


I would be interested in hearing from some people who have had experience with this treatment. I have an Argentine with what I am going to call "chronic" RI which has responded to antibiotics and has just now come back.

[The_Boaphile]

Here is something I had written on it a couple years ago. Let me know if it helps!

Good luck!

Jeff

Here was the previously written piece:

Hey!

Here we are. I mean, here I am with the first installment of:

"The Boaphile Internet News"!!

This may not be very exciting but this may be the most important E-mail I send via this little newsletter thing. Anyhow here goes!

I am not a Dr. I am barely even literate as my writings will attest. I am not a Vet or even a Vet Tech. I didn't even take Chemistry in high school (schedule conflict). Loved science and was good at it but absolutely no training or expertise in the field, but I am sharing my experience here and now. I am not recommending you follow this but am merely relaying what I have observed. There are laws I think against giving medical advise without a license. Maybe even regarding Boa medicine. I am unlicensed and only retelling what has occurred here.

As many of you know, I breed Boas. That's is, just Boas. I bred Ball Pythons once but that was really an accident. I am breeding a lot of Boas. I mean, a LOT of Boas. Every year I end up with a few Boas, which at the end of breeding season, have respiratory problems or in general get run down as a result of going through the stress of the long breeding season which, in Boas lasts from 2-5 or even up to 6 months. I have usually just watched these stressed Boas for a while keeping them slightly warmer than usual (85 degrees F or so) until the animal resumed vigorous feeding and returns to normal. Most snap out of it and take off again. However, a handful may require more TLC. I have used a number of
anti- biotics with very limited success but what choice do we have but to try to do our best to take proper care of the animals we are entrusted for. I have used Amakacin, Baytril, Trimethoprim sulfa and Fortaz all with limited success. Very limited indeed. Health problems occasionally occur out of the blue at any time of the year in addition to the post breeding season. If the problem is so advanced as to be an obvious respiratory problem, it is probably quite severe and experience has taught me I have a really slim chance of curing the problem. I have had these animals to a good reptile vet for bacterial cultures and the recommended drug has been Amakacin or Baytril. These, in my experience in Boa Constrictors, have been very ineffective in bringing the animals around. Whether or not they knocked down the bacterial problem is to me irrelevant if the animal has "lost the will to live". Bottom line I want the animal to spring back and do well. They seem to get so run down and just give up.

I have heard for years of the existence of a drug called "Tylan" or Tylosin which has been used in Burmese for chronic respiratory problems. I have heard the Burms, in some cases have been treated for months on end with this dope with good results in warding off these respiratory problems. I figured I would give it a try. I spoke with a large Python guy who said he gave 50 mg/kg of this drug every three days long term with excellent results. I decided to give it a whirl. Tylan is used in swine and cattle for a number of problems and I purchased this over the counter at a local feed store in a bottle, big enough to treat a herd of cattle along with a few sick Boas. I injected the Tylan sub q which means just under the skin. This was repeated three more times waiting three days between each injection. Normal precautions were taken with alcohol and cotton balls. The results were UNBOALIEVABLE!

Part II is the next post:

[The_Boaphile]

Here is the remaining information:

One of the Boas I treated had had a chronic respiratory problem for about three years. This Boa was given to me by a friend of mine who was going to put her to sleep because he could not clear this up and he did not want his other animals to get this problem. She was dripping mucus from her mouth in such large quantities that she fogged up her cage glass in a matter of days after cleaning. She went into a shed and after shedding until now some 8 months later there has been absolutely no cold, no snot, nothing. She has been doing fantastic as have all the other animals I treated at that time. I had a particularly bad year last year and 11 animals with various and sundry problems which I treated with Tylan with fantastic results. Normally most of these animals would have died. They are wonderful!

Sent a preliminary copy to Dave & Tracy Barker. Dave was nice enough to sent the following response along with some additional helpful
information:

" Hi Jeff, congrats on Volume 1, Issue 1 of the B.I.N. It is informative and interesting. Tylan was considered a wonder drug back in the mid 1970s. It cured many things that chloromycetin (our other wonder-drug back then) wouldn't touch, plus we could buy it without a prescription. It is very safe (I'm sure this isn't true, but I don't think one can over-dose it, at least I've seen it used very carelessly with no visible bad effects.) It's usually administered daily for two weeks, but I say go with what works. The thing about it is that it has little or no effect on gram-negative bacteria, which is the general type of bacteria that most-often causes disease in reptiles. But Tylan is one of few drugs that effectively treats a little-known and poorly understood group of organisms called micoplasms. Micoplasms are known to occasionally cause disease. They are difficult to culture and you have to specifically request that a culture be run for micoplasms, as they grow more slowly than bacteria. Most antibiotics have no effect on micoplasms. Most of the time Tylan is ineffective to use as a hit-or-miss antibiotic. But when it works, it can be dramatic. It would be my guess that the problems you've been seeing in your boa colony are caused by micoplasms. Just be aware that when Tylan doesn't work, it may be time to pull out the amikacin.

Dave Barker
vpi@gvtc.com"

Perhaps Boas in particular or at least Boas here at my place have been particularly vulnerable to these microplasms. Perhaps gram negative bacteria is not so common in Boa constrictors. Who knows? I just know I am very happy to have heard about and tried Tylan which has been the "wonder drug" for my Boas coming out of the breeding season along with the stresses the breeding season brings.


Jeff

[redtailboas]

Would someone post the common size of syringe/needle used as well as the area of the body that you would typically inject the Tylan.

I would use Tylan 200 because that reduces the amount of dosage by 75%.

This is good information and could help a lot of people.

[DaveC]

Clay, I have not used Tylan, but would probably be inclined to use the Tylan 200 which is 200mg/ml. That way, for a snake that weighs 8.8 pounds, or 4 kg, you would need to administer 200mg of Tylan, or 1ml. With the Tylan 50 you would need 4ml. Also, look at some of the links I put above. Someone else stated that Tylan was effective in boas in dosages of 25mg/kg. With other antibiotics I have used a 5/8" 25 guage needle, and you want to inject in the cranial third of the body, in the muscle on either side of the spine. You can also inject most subcutaneously, or just under the skin.

What I would like to know is how long people continue treatment for.

[The_Boaphile]

The Tylan I used is the Tylan 50. That's all they had at "Fleet Farm". The dosage is relative to the amount of the drug in the liquid and of course is a different amount if the concentration is higher as it is in the Tylan 200. "Cranial third" means the front third for those like me who are uneducated. I had not heard that term before "Cranial third" I mean but I can tell what it means. I guess it's because somewhere inside this thick cranium of mine there is something. Not sure what but something. The higher concentration would definitely be preferable to the lower Tylan I was able to obtain. Less fluid generally can mean less discomfort. Have fun!

[redtailboas]

Thanks Dave

The dosage math as I understand it.

200 mg = 1 ml = 1 cc  

I think that is right, but if it is not then someone correct me.

[DaveC]

Sorry about the "cranial" thing there, Mr. Ronne. I thought that was a normal term, but then again I went to school for Biology so that may explain the geekish terminology.

Clay, Yes, the Tylan 200 is 200mg/ml, so 1 ml has 200mg. An easy way to do calculations like this is factor labeling. You know that 1/2 * 2 = 1 because the 2's cancel out. Do the same with the labels. ie

50mg/kg * 4kg = 200mg because the kg's cancel out.
You have a solution that is 200mg/ml, you want to administer 200 mg. You want to know how many ml. Set it up so you end up with ml on top. continued

[DaveC]

Sorry about, for some reason I got cut off and couldn't type any more. Wierd.

1ml/200mg * 200mg = 1ml again the mg cancel out. Say we wanted to administer 75mg.

1ml/200mg * 75mg = (75mg*ml)/200mg = 0.375ml

Email me if I you want more info or if I sound too dorky.

Back to Mr. Ronne, How long do you treat snakes with Tylan? With Amikacin, my vet had me go every 72 hours for 3 weeks. I am going back on Friday with my snake and I think he'll do a culture this time. Last time, there wasn't much in the way of outward signs, except for one hoarse breath that the vet heard. If he does the antibiotic thing again and it does not work, I may try Tylan, but would like to know how long.

Thanks

[Red]

I can't belive how nerdy you all are... just kid'in.. Do you think it is all that humidity that you have there jeff.. may-be if the people tryed to raise the humidity in the dish the stuff would grow better... just a thought...
Eric aka...Red

[kryolla]

I tried the 25g needle and it did not work. Does anyone know what size needle. Thanks Drew

[dblhet]

Drew,i thought the same thing,but the 25 guage will work...tylan is thick,so it just takes forever to draw it up in the needle

[Panama_Red]

Well I tried Tylosin and it is a wonder drug, Ive got 2 boas that came down with the sniffles, a male and a female, so far the male has totaly turned around and is feeding like a champ, and the female is coming along also. They have both had 3 shots each, but how long should I continue?

[dblhet]

25 mg per kg of body weight,once every 3 days ..3 times..for a total of 9 days

[bcijoe]

well, I lost a $1,000 animal this past season due to a bad RI...
and it was a Columbian bci - this thing was my favorite out of more than 100+ boas!!!
then I got a hold of some of this stuff through a website link posted earlier in this thread..
by the time I got Tylosin in the mail (towards the end of the season) I had another 5 adults come down with the sniffles...

The common 25g insulin needles do work, it is just very slow to draw since the Tylan is very thick.

Well I was told by a VERY reputable source to go with one dosage every 3 days, 5 times, not 3 times..

By the third time you could see them start to clear up and get better.
By the 5th time, I could barely tell which were sick anymore!

Let me tell you this stuff works miracles!!!

All these 5 adults were really nice animals, somewhat expensive redtails...
a Bell Bolivian Amarilli, a Clark Surinam Redtail, a Ronne Peruvian Redtail, an Amazon Basin Redtail and an 8' yellow and pink columbian bci.

After the treatment, 4 of 5 turned around completely and are now eating better than some of my animals who were never sick!
They cleared up, stopped producing mucus/phlem, started eating great, and never looked back!
Only 1 still didn't eat so I waited a week or two and began treatment again. She seems to be coming around this time.

So, yes this stuff IS great!
Thanks for all who helped out here with the dosages and links and whatnot.
Thanks to the Big Boss Man himself for his knowledge and info given here.
Hopefully this will produce alot more success stories, so, to then, produce alot more beautiful baby boas out there!!! :'(

[Panama_Red]

Has any one got any other ways to cure a respatory infection? I still haven't got the female to come around yet, She has no bubles or mucus and is not proping her head up, but weezes heavily. But she is feeding now and putting on stacks of weight. All of the vets in my area are retarded, I tell them what the problem is and what to treat it with and pay them accordingly. Baytril has done very little for me in the past and I am worried about the side effects of amikacin. Any help would be great.

[sclark]

I wanted to share what seems to be working great for me using Tylan 200. Thanks to Clay's help.

A 15 pound boa given 6cc's of Tylan 200  with a 22 gauge needle. The tylan is kept in the frig until I fill the needle, then the needle is warmed in a cup of warm water. Worked real well. This will be done 3 times over 9 days..

This is being done to prevent problems after the poor boa split out its neck and needed to be stables and stiched..

So far all is great..
Steve

[rhamador23]

How will you give Tylan to a 2-month old boa? Please tell me in cc. Thank you.

Gab/MN

[chiefmeat68]

I have two boas with RI infections. I have a friend who is a vet tech and has supplied me with Amakacin which I have been administering to both boas every three days. It has now been eights days and my larger female has showed no noticeable improvement. My question for all is that I plan to switch treatments to Tylan (it’s cheaper and sounds like it will work better for my problem) but I am not sure if I can continue with the Tylan where I have left off with the Amakacin. Should I wait a few days or weeks before starting them on Tylan or can I start immediately? Drug interactions in reptiles I doubt have been studied thoroughly :) but any opinions would be appreciated.

[LoneStarRoatan]

Due to popular beliefs dropping humidity levels to ambient and or around 50% or less.
Removing water dish`s and replaceing them once a week for 24 hrs and maintaining heat levels 85*-70*.Several are doing this now and the results are steadily proving themselves out.
Those with past RI history(even once) are showing positive.
I have my snakes within these paramiters and their thriving in every area feed,condition and overall attitude.I`m pretty confident my snakes will never see another 90* day in their lives.

Comments Welcome

[mike31]

I have a female albino that was was in really bad shape with a respitory infection,she looked like she was on her death bed not quite 2 weeks ago,mucus coming out of her mouth and nose, not eating,the only vet around here that works on reptiles is no longer in business and she was'nt much help when she was in business,when i read this thread i went out as soon as i saw it and bought some tylan and started treating her,she's only had 3 shots and she has shed and looks like a new snake,she's very alert and feeding great.To me this is a miracle drug and i have all of you to thank, thanks alot, mike

[boxingboa]

I just want to say thank you all for putting all this info on Tylan it saved my female boa Pam.I got here from Tim Frazer 3 weeks ago she is 5-5 1/2 feet.She is a pastel.I love her I have wanted her ever sense Tim got her 3 1/2 years ago she is about 4 years old.I got her because last year Tim was cleaning cages and put her in with a male.They hooked up by the time Tim went to get her out the were locked in love.She had 48 slugs this year any way.After she had the babies she got a RI.I went up to see Tim and he told me what was going on.He then gave her to me as long as I would take her to the Vet and do ever thing I could for her.I took her to Dr. Bleem the next day.She was acting fine wanted food but was open mouth breathing and had lots of drool.I told him about this site and showed him the fourm and after looking in to it he said lets give it a try.She is know doing super super great.SO Thank you so much for all the info.He used Tylan 200.Once agin Thank YOU ALL.

[Surisean]

First of all I want to say thanks for all of the info on the site, you guys are really helpful and have some beautiful snakes. I have a question about how much of the Tylan 50 I should give to a 17 lb. hog island female who is in pretty bad shape after a round of Baytril injections that I got from the vet that didn't help at all. She was eating and active before the baytril and now she just lays there and doesn't want to eat at all. Any help will be greatly appreciated and thanks again