A Colombian with widows peaks?

[Slash]

8)  Ok, so, I got this Het. for albino that from day one I thought was crossed with a Suriname..  The breeder is a "big name" breeder that i wont mention, but is known for crossing colombians with surinames so the albino colors are better...  On his Opening page, he has a pic of a pure suriname... The het I have is a spittin' image of that boa...What Im wondering is, are all boas that have widows peaks, "true red tails"?... Im not mad or anything, I just dont want to misrepresent the babies when they're born...  From day one he talked about how good it was...and it is all he said it was... It has 12 ruby red saddles on its tail...  Can colombians have widows peaks or is this most likely a cross?...  Check out www.briansharp.com and on the opening page, is the boa im talking about....He said its a pure bred suriname in the pic....the  one i have is EXACTLY the same but with a better tail....dont look at the address tho cuz that'd give the name away...  regardless.. whats your 2 cents?

[Slash]

8) btw I just want to say... The service was perfection...the snake is gorgous/healthy, and has had no problems... The breeder I got her from has not refused breeding info, or after sale info etc... I have nothing bad to say, and recommend everyone to this breeder.. Ive bought het's from him since...and most likely will again... all im wondering is could this be a mix.... Ive never heard of colombians having widows peaks..... can they?

[Ritchie]

Yes colombians can have widows peaks.

The best thing you can do is ask him...
He is an honest guy...he will tell you the truth.

[morti]

The breeder is a "big name" breeder that i wont mention, {snipped} Check out www.briansharp.com and on the opening page, is the boa im talking about....

I'm sorry... I just had to giggle a little at the intrensic humor of that.

-Morti, Still laughing.

[cb76]

like ritchie said, colombians can have widows. i have some with them, i have some with out. i think most have a couple of peaks on thier body.

the gene was introduced, not to make colombian better- because once crossed- its a mutt, but to introduce the gene to the surinam bcc. surinams would definitly make a more beautiful albino- from the redder tail and the body colors.

all you can do is ask. if it was brian sharp, he'll tell you.

[redtailboas]

You know there are a few that believe that Colombians are actually IN the BCC classification.

But don't worry I will not tell them you think that Jeff. I will keep it between us. ;D

[Slash]

8) Ironic I know.. but the "after-sale info" was more along the lines of breeding info, not the origin... And I'd probably not be remembered well enough for him to know the exact snake I was talking about... (this statement being made, in the faith that I know what "intrinsic" means... if not, ignore me)

Okay, I'm under the understanding that there are both BCC and BCI in Columbia and the two are seperated by the Mountain range. Rmember also that Brian has crossbred the Albino BCI with the Suriname. They are listed on his site and are sold as such.

[Steve_B.]

Just wanted to add that not only do some Colombians have some widow's peaks, but I have seen Surinams with no peaks. Colombian BCI resemble most BCC more than they resemble Central American BCI; at least to my eye. Just my .02.
Steve B.

[milksnakeman]

Okay, I've done some research and asked some well-known breeders what the difference is, and nobody has given me a good answer. What is the difference between BCI and BCC? The answer I always get is BCC are prettier. One guy, a VERY well-known and respected herper told me that there were MANY differences between the two, but he wouldn't tell me any of them. I love boas. They are great animals. I just want to know how my Guyanas are different from my Colombians. My Guyanas are prettier, sure, but I've seen Colombians prettier than my Guyanas.

Don't get me wrong, of all my snakes, my boas are my favorite. Even as I try to thin out my collection, I look for new boas. I just want to know more because it seems to me that the biggest difference between the two is the price, and I don't want to get hosed by someone selling half-breeds and calling them "True".

[surfimp]

Well shoot, I'm certainly no expert, but I can outline a number of differences between BCI and BCC for you, if that's all you want ;)

1) BCC generally grow larger than BCI; it's not uncommon for BCC females to grow to 10-12 feet, and I've personally seen a Suriname female at the San Diego Zoo that's placarded as being 13 feet. BCI, on the other hand, typically max out at 10 feet, with 7-9 feet being more common.

2) Depending upon whose taxonomy description you use, BCI and BCC can be differentiated based upon midbody & ventral scale counts and the number of saddles or blotches on the back. The downside is that there's conflicting taxonomic descriptions for these animals, leading to situations where an animal that is "supposed" to be a BCI actually has some of the physical attributes of a BCC.

I think this latter issue is what causes Dr. Ronne to describe his Colombians as BCC, even though most people would tend to consider them BCI--it's because every animal that he's ever taken scale counts of has had counts matching those laid out in the original description of BCC. And these are animals that he knows are of west-of-the-Andes Colombian locality, the region that is "supposed" to contain only BCI due the geographical barrier posed by the mountain range itself.

Of course, these animals don't grow to BCC sizes, and exhibit colorations and patterning consistent with what is generally considered a "Common Boa" or BCI. So it gets a little complex, to say the least.

3) Now, depending upon who you talk to, various breeders and enthusiasts claim that they can tell from looking at a boa's head shape and other aspects of body proportion as to whether or not it's BCI or BCC. I don't have enough experience myself, but from what I can gleam from the experts, it seems the BCI have a rounder head with softer edges, whereas the BCC head is more flattened out and "chiseled" looking.

And of course, there's always the tails. BCC have the alias "True Red Tails" for a reason; they have the brightest red in their tails, with the cleanest and purest white. This much you can easily see in many photos of BCC, especially of nice Surinames.

The above is by no means all-inclusive, but it's a rough sketch of what I think are considered pretty common differences between BCI and BCC. Hope it helps!

[milksnakeman]

Thank you, Doctor, that is the best answer I've been able to get regarding the difference. It seems from others I've spoken to that the BCI vs BCC question is a fairly hot topic. I ask breeders and people at reptile shows what the difference is, and they get shifty and go straight for "True Red Tail."

I agree, the tail is redder. The body color is generally prettier with less freckling in most cases. What I'm looking for is biological differences. You mention size, and that is a good one.

At the heart of my question is my pair of Guyanas. They have beautiful red tails, but there is a lot of freckling beginning to appear on their sides, and they don't have huge widow's peaks that are a trademark of boas from that locality. How can I know that I have a pair of Guyanas, and not half-breeds or something like that? I got them from a respected source, but how much can I trust someone I don't know?

Thanks again for the great info.

[surfimp]

how much can I trust someone I don't know?

Geez, I don't even know how much you can trust someone you do know! LOL :)

I think that if your animals come from a respected source and are being represented as BCC from Guyana, you've pretty much got to go with what that person is saying.

In theory, if your breeder had the original wildcaught animals, I suppose you could ask to see a copy of their paperwork, which would indicate which country they were shipped from--although as others have indicated, this is not always an accurate representation of where the animal was collected.

That's sort of the Catch-22 with trying to get locality-specific animals--you have to trust whomever it is (actually, almost surely more than one person) that the snakes were actually collected in the location indicated. Otherwise, how can you be sure they are "true" localities? This is assuming you don't go to Guyana and collect them yourself, of course ;)

Last thing I'd add is that Boas are notable, among many other reasons, for the great amount of color and pattern variability they are capable of exhibiting--surely not news to you :) While I'm certainly no expert, it's altogether reasonable, at least to me, to assume that there may be many, many boas in Guyana that don't have widow's peaks but do have more freckling, and yet are still naturally-occuring in that area.

I think we'd be selling the Boa short to assume that all Guyanans must have widow's peaks and purple-pink color, and all Surinames have amazing red tails and clean backgrounds, and so forth. To limit what defines a "true" locality animal to such narrow terms, at least in the case of the Boa, which is so highly variable, seems to result in extremely unique animals from a given region being passed off as not "Region-esque" enough.

No matter what, you've got two amazing animals in your possession and regardless of how they look, they just wanna be loved! Or at least fed a suitably sized rodent at regular intervals ;)