breeding boas with missing eyes?

[cbirch]

I am looking a purchasing a trio of boas.
male anery het snow
2 female albinos het snow

the two females are siblings from unrelated parents
and are each missing an eye. They were the only two
in the clutch with a bad a eye, Pete Kahl removed the
eyes a couple of days after being born.
I wondered if you had any thoughts on if this is
a genetic thing. has anyone ever had any experience
with this. I always thought that if an snake was
missing an eye it was most likely from inbreeding but
that doesn't seem to be the case here. I also hear something about tear ducts getting clogged etc...
Has anyone ever grown one up. did the babies have missing eyes?
I just didn't know who to ask for information
about this.
If you could help a little it would be greatly
appreciated
Thanks a lot for you time
Charlie Birch

[HerperCCC]

First off, sorry, I can't answer your question. I have seen this trio as well and was curious about this very question! I don't imagine it will affect them "breeding wise," but would like to know if this is commonly seen w/ the albino gene. Can anyone help us out here? Thanks.

[Jon-e-Boy]

I've heard of numerous big breeders breeding albinos with distorted eyes or even no eyes at all. Some say it increases the chances of this trait showing in the offspring and some say that it doesn't hurt it. My opinion is that if I had the cash (because I've seen this trio for sale already) they would have already been mine. That is a great deal for those boas; eyes or no eyes. I say you talk the guy down a couple hundred, and you get them! It's up to you, but as far as the eyes go, they can obviously produce offspring, but the effects are variable. Good luck! :'(

Jon Falco

[YVP]

I saw that ad too, I won't pick them up. it just seems wrong. I look at it like this, pay a few bucks more, get snakes with eyes that aren't jacked.... and not be concerned with the issue of if they'll produce junk eyed kids.....you can find the same snakes with eyes no problem.....would you wanna risk it and have a litter of blind boas? I wouldn't. I'd feel like I failed somewhere. >:(

[Linda]

Hi Charlie,
I haven't seen the ad or the animals. I think if you want the boas and the price is right you should get them. :'(
Now there is a "down side" to getting them though.
First nobody has ever proven "conclusively" that the "eye problem" is "genetic". Of course, it's never been proven "conclusively" that it's not either.
Second I'm guessing you're planning on breeding them in the future. If they do produce are you going to be telling your customers that the mother is missing an eye? Some people "do believe" it's genetic, although it's not yet proven, and some people wouldn't want a baby from a "one eyed boa". Of course you could always just keep the fact that they're missing an eye to yourself, but that's not really a good idea either. Third do you really want to take a change of producing more "one eyed boas?" Even though nobody knows for sure if it's genetic there's always a possibility it is. Of course it could just be a "random" occurrence. I've seen at least 1 het for albino in the ads this year with only one eye, so it's not limited to the albino "colored" animals.
Now I was wondering one more thing. You said, "Pete Kahl removed the eyes a couple of days after being born." Are you saying Pete removed them or he took them to a vet and a "vet" removed them? I don't know how difficult it is to remove a snake's eye, but I would think that's something a "vet" should do. I personally would be leery of getting an animal that had an eye removed by the breeder and not a vet.
Overall the final decision is yours. Like I said, "if you want them get them." Just be honest with your customers if/when you produce babies to sell.
Good Luck,
Linda

[Randy_T.]

I am looking at an albino also that has the one eye problem, I have heard both ways "its genetic" and "it's not genetic" from what I have heard, (and what I tend to lean toward) is if you breed them to an unrelated male you shouldn't have a problem with the one eye deformity reoccuring. But then again you could end up having a litter with several one eyed neonates.

Later Randy T.

[Panama_Red]

I think it is obvious that albinos have some bad genetic qualitys, and boas with any of these defects should NEVER be bred.  Only boas with the best genetics available should be bred.  I'm not trying to be rude or anything like that, but breeding boas is about enhancing good traits and producing top quality animals.  If you are going to get them as pets, thats great.  I wouldn't want a baby from one of the boas even if they were outcrossed what would you advertise them as het for 1 eye syndrome? Quality is always better than quantity in the long run.   It would be no different than breeding dogs with bad hips, or eyes, if you do it your just trying to make money not quality animals, and thats just wrong in my opinion.

[Jon-e-Boy]

Sometimes it's not always about producing top quality animals though. Sometimes it's about creating life. If you knew before you were born that you would be born with one missing or malfunctioning eye, would you not want to be born at all? Now the point about refining the albino gene is a valid one, but I think it is up to the owner or breeder to decide. But this is a good post I think; it's getting a whole bunch of opinions and facts. So everyone, lets keep em' coming! :'(

Jon Falco

[Panama_Red]

Jon
I realize they are already alive and I'm not saying they should be kulled, but I don't think they should be bred. In the world of purebred dogs there are are 2 kinds of animals available pet quality and show quality. Most breeders would require that you have a pet quality animal spayed or nuetered. I don't know of anyone that can fix a snake, but I think they fall into the pet quality area. The bad eyes are there obviously, lets not make more of them. Albinos are already a pain to breed as it is, how many folks do you know that have produced from an albino to albino breeding? most come from hets or het to albino breedings.

[Jon-e-Boy]

I see where you are coming from, but I still believe that albinos with eye problems have just as much chance at passing this trait down to their offspring as normal albinos do, and no more. I had a male with no eyes breed a few years back and it did not affect the offspring in any visible way. This is just my opinion and one breeding does not put this debate to a rest, but I've also spoken to other people who've bred albinos with eye problems and said that there was no noticeable side affects in the offspring. Anyways, I see all the points that are being made and I certainly can say that I agree with all of them to some extent and my opinion is just an "opinion" based on conclusions from my years of breeding.

Jon Falco

[ScooterJ46]

I have to add my two cents worth here. I had an Old English Sheepdog a few years back. It was 12 years old when I had to get rid of him, but when he was young I took him to the VEt for a normal check up and the Vet told me that the dog had an embilical hernia. A bulging area, located where yours and my belly button would be. This bulge could get choked off and strangulate the bowel section in the dogs abdomen. So the VEt recommended surgery and he also said, while I have him under, lets neuter him, cause this malady is genetic and we don't want to pass it on. I didn't think much about it for the next few years, until I got a call from the Breeder that I purchased the do from. Now I had move twice, so she had to really try to find me. She was desperate when I spoke to her, she started to cry while telling me the story of her sheepdog, the mother of mine, had died and she had a female from another litter and wanted to breed it to my dog. She said he was show quality and his genetics were of champion caliber. Well when I told her that I had him fixed she went ballistic on me. I never heard a women cuss like that before. The point of this story is, I wouldn't do it again. I really should have let him breed and let the cards fall where they may. I would rather have more of these beautiful animals around even if there eyesight is affected. They are more pets than anything else, to be enjoyed and loved by the owners. Besides, the albino gene in all species has some dramatically negative affects, mostly on the eyes. the eyes don't have pigment and the retinas are damaged by the tremendous amount of light entering without the aid of pigment to filter it out. In humans, albinos are almost all blind, or very close to it. Does that mean that those humans with the albinism trait should not be allowed to mate? I guess the bottom line is that it is everyone's opinion, and we should all respect everyone's opinion, whether we agree or disagree. Good night and may God Bless. Oh and sorry about my ramblings. I think that I have had too much Diet Coke tonight.

[ssgsims]

But I guess the debate has become whether to breed them or not. Do what you think is right. That simple. Hope it works out for ya!!

[bcijoe]

I also have different opinions, and at the same time,i do agree with many of the arguments made here.

If your concern WAS making money, and they produce half normal/healthy babies, half one-eyed 'freaks'.... well, the sales of the healthy babies alone will compensate you for your investment, even if you practically give the 'freaks' away. BY NO MEANS AM I CONDONING THIS BEHAVIOR, this is just for arguments sake.
But then who would pay even half price for a 'pet-one-eyed-albino' ? not me.
What would be the future of all those one-eyed boas? Like someone mentioned before, you can't go get them fixed!!! How would you make sure someone else is not 'spreading' this malady around?

I DOUBT you will drop a few thousand dollars for the trio for pets....

and at the end of the day, as already mentioned, it will be difficult to sell even normal healthy babies from a one-eyed parent.

An Albino Boa is something MOST would purchase as an investment - whether you believe it to be a good one or not (for you locality vs. morphs 'brawlers', lol) - therefore the Albinos will, almost without question, be bred and their offspring sold, in most cases only to be raised to breed again!
Since this is the premise here, I don't think it will be the best decision, or the most 'sound' investment.

Then you can take into consideration the fact that they came from a well known breeder, and in a way give them the 'benefit of the doubt'. and considering you outcross them, the blood/genes should clear up, right?
then again, who knows for sure....?

hmmmm

I thought about this trio for a while.. months ago when they were first posted. Let's just say that now, they are about half rice of what I first saw them for.... and they are still there...

[Randy_T.]

One other issue that can and more then likely be brought up would be if you did breed a 1 eyed albino, but you also had 3 or 4 other albino breeding groups going, would people actually trust you when you said you are selling them an albino from a non related breeding (not related to the 1 eye)?

As mistrustful as alot of people are about purchasing over the internet in the first place, this could tarnish a persons status/reputation.

I have decided I will avoid the one eye issue myself after debating over it...Just so I do not create any headaches.

[bcijoe]

Randy I agree with you 200% !!!
A couple bucks isn't worth damaging your reputation.
One, one-eyed Albino, amidst a collection of THOUSANDS can put you on the 'iffy' list... not worth the headaches is exactly right!
I don't know about you guys, but once someone lies to me, I deffinately have trouble believing them again , IF I ever choose to deal with them again!

[ratman]

I personally am supprised PK sold them. Of course what would he do withthem otherwise. It certainly wouldn't be right to put them down. I have never heard of any snake born with these eye problems except in slbinos. One of the posts said they saw a het like this, but the albino gene was still involved. It wouls seem that it is increasing if it is showing in hets. I think it is silly to suggest it isn't genetic somehow. My 2 cents worth. :'(

[Linda]

I had another thought on the "one eye" thing. Now, for the most part, we've only seen "1 or No eye" boas with the Albino gene. I really can't remember seeing any run of the mill "common" boas with only 1 eye for sale anywhere. On the other hand it seems "every year" there are Albino and/or het for albino with only 1 eye for sale. Does this mean there has "NEVER" been a run of the mill common boas born with only "1 eye?" I can't say for sure, but I do have a theory on it. It seems that an Albino or Het for Albino boa with 1 eye has "some" worth and is always much more expensive than the "common boa". On the other hand a "1 eye" common boa "might" be consider "worthless". Especially since for a "few dollars more" you can get a common boa with 2 eyes. Now "IF" there were any common or "LOW END" boas that were born with only 1 eye, would a breeder try to sell it or kull it from the group? Since it's already been mentioned that the "missing eye" thing makes animals from a clutch "less attractive" to the pontiental buyer. It's just some thoughts I had on the subject. Does anyone else have any thoughts/theories to add?

[HerperCCC]

I think you may be on to something, Linda. Very valid point that I hadn't thought of! :'(

[ratman]

Well if by "kull" you mean KILL, I would be shocked. I can't imagine doing that unless it was to put the animal out of its' misery. I'm not saying that it couldn't happen. I know there are some unscrupulous people out their but I can't help but feel that it is related to the albino gene. I know in deer the piebald gene is often linked to problems with the heart and/or a shorter nose and/or short stumpy legs. Who knows? I do feel that one or no eye albinos need and deserve a loving owner but I don't think I would breed them and take the chance of creating more and I would certainly hate to see it begin to occur in snows. Just my opinion!

[Linda]

Hey Ratman,
Yes, "in some cases" and "to some people" kull mean "kill". It's been done for years by Breeders of many types of animals. It doesn't matter if it's a horse, dog, cat, or even a snake. In some cases "defective animals" are killed. Some are killed just for being the wrong color. I seen this first hand when I worked at a vet and entire litters of puppies would be brought in to be euthanized, because of color alone. Although there are some breeders that allow "defective animals" to adpoted out "anonomously" with the only condition being where they came from never to be revealed. The sad part is that many animals are put to death each year for being "imperfect". I personally think any "healthy" animal, defective or not, deserves to live. As long as there's someone willing to take it in and give it a loving home. It's only the ones that do it for the "money" and not the "love" of the animals that actaully "kill" imperfect animals. They "claim" to do it for the betterment of the bloodline. Most never repeat the breeding that produced the imperfect animals in question. It's a sad truth, but it is how a "small percentage" handle "imperfect animals".

[Jon-e-Boy]

See, now that isn't right. I, like most other breeders, have imperfections in my stock from time to time and if other breeders say they don't they're outright lying. But anyhow, I always find a home for EVERY one of them, and some the majority of them turn out to be fine breeders as adults. But to "Kill" an animal to purify bloodlines. Now that is wrong no matter how you put it. I don't care if PK, Jeff, or anyone says different; that is wrong. When you are a breeder, you are supposed to create life, not "create then destroy" life if you don't like something about it. This is definitely something we all have to deal with.....and it is exactly that....something to be "delt" with, not destroyed.

Jon Falco

[ratman]

I totally agree! I just wouldn't purposely breed any animal I felt had an obviously undesireable trait like no or one eye(s). Who knows maybe there is a market for one eyed or no eyed albinos. I saw a person trying to sell a two headed snake a few months ago. I imagine it died before he could find a buyer though.

[cahrens]

I definately wouldn't even consider this trio. Just remember..... you get what you pay for. Spend the extra bux and get clean, healthy, complete animals. You'll also end up with better babies when you breed so you'd make the extra cash back anyway. Good babies from good parents are certainly more valuable that blind or missing eyed ones or normal ones which noone knows if they are carrying bad genes or not. Het for 1 eye boas?? I think it's the responsibility of the breeder to promote good, healthy bloodlines and avoid breeding lesser quality animals. -Chris

[ScooterJ46]

I would be willing to be that this thread of posts could go on for ever. The reason, quite simply is that everyone has an opinion and we are all entitled to one and everyone is different, hence a differing opinion. I just want to add one last thing from my perspective, no matter how flawed or so called damaged the offspring may be, I think everyone interested in boas, would love the opportunity to own an albino. And just like alot of other products out there, some are priced for the wealthy, others are priced inexpensively for the less fortunate that still have the same wants, desires and aspirations as everyone else with the money. Why not allow those that are not as fortunate to own and purchase the one eyed or blind albinos, and love them and take care of them as anyone would that is able to afford the perfect albinos. I just think that everything happens for a reason and for every reason there is someone out there to take care of that so called reason. I am getting too deep here, but hopefully you catch my drift. For every animal ut there, there is a corresponding owner that will take care of it and raise it and enjoy its shortcomings, no matter what they may be. If you had the opportunity to know ahead of time that your child was going to be retarted, or handicapped, would you abort it, or allow it to be born and love and raise it the best you could. "A very tough question to answer, on a smaller scale this is similar." Its personal preference, and thats what makes the world go round. Good night and may the God bless.

[cahrens]

Hi Scooter. I see your point and agree that this would be an inexpensive way for someone to get a PET albino. I just don't think they should be bred. Sure, raise them, love them, enjoy them, just don't breed them. This trio is obviously meant to be bred and this is what I don't agree with. If I wanted 1 and couldn't afford it I'd just wait a few years till the price dropped and then get a perfect 1 for the same price as the imperfect 1 now costs. As you said though........ Everyone has an opinion and this is just mine. -Chris

[Panama_Red]

I think This has definatly become an interesting post. The real question is: Do you think it is responcible to breed boas that are from bad blood on purpose? It's not about the right to live or anything to do with being born handicapped. It is obvious that everyone on the site loves boas, but it is also a GIANT buisness. I think if you are producing boas that you intend to sell at some point, they should be of the highest quality available.

[techbota]

OK none of this makes sense and maybe someone can help me understand.

Alot of you say you would never buy a 1 eyed albino boa from Pete Kahl . Makes sense right????

I dont think so.

Because you would buy a 2 eyed albino boa from Pete Kahl wouldnt you. And you would be getting a 2 eyed snake probably from the same litter. Or the same parents.

The gene no matter what, is coming from the parents whether the young have 1 or 2 eyes. Its the parents that shouldnt be allowed to bred anymore.

So are some of you never going to trust one of his snakes again??? Because in some of the above arguments that is basically what you are saying.
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One other issue that can and more then likely be brought up would be if you did breed a 1 eyed albino, but you also had 3 or 4 other albino breeding groups going, would people actually trust you when you said you are selling them an albino from a non related breeding (not related to the 1 eye)?


I think if your going to be messing with genetics period your gonna get oddities so it doesnt matter. I would also bet you would be suprised if you seen ALL the breeder boas that are being used by reputable breeders.

[YVP]

just to clear something up...pete kahl wasn't selling these if I remember correctly. it was just a kahl strain.

[techbota]

Ahh I didnt get that part but....the fact still remains, that im sure even he has litters with one eyed albinos or other deformities but gets rid of them. (not saying kill just gets rid of them)

So when you buy a snake from the same clutch . In essence its the same genetic make up as the one eyed snake. It was just born normal

[Jon-e-Boy]

Ahh I didnt get that part but....the fact still remains that im sure even he has litters with one eyed albinos or other deformities but gets rid of them. (not saying kill just gets rid of them)

So when you buy a snake from the same clutch . In essence its the same genetic make up as the one eyed snake. It was just born normal

I completely agree. I didn't want to re-ignite the fire so I stopped posting, but I COMPLETELY agree with you techbota! Me and you are thinking the same way.

[bcijoe]

Actually the seller claims he bought them as Neo's from Pete, so , yes Pete DID sell them WITH their present condition, again, according to the seller.

[ksshane]

I would probably steer clear of someone that I knew was selling animals with obvious genetic problems.

I have a dog with a blood decease that is genetic. Its a well known desease in this type of dog, and I asked the breeder about it before I purchased the dog. He assured me that none of his dogs have it. 6 months later I find out that my dog has this desease after my vet did a test. When I informed the breeder his reaction was "I could trade her in for another".

1. I am attached to this dog (my wife and I dont have children so our animals are our children)

2. Why would I trade my dog for another that has a chance of having the same disease.

Now this breeder is a well known breeder around here, but do you think I will ever purchase another dog from him. Nope. Not when I can find the same breed of dog somewhere else.

[Randy_T.]

Excellent example on why breeders shouldn't breed/sell defective animals. Good post Shane. :'(.


Later Randy T. :P

[YVP]

Actually the seller claims he bought them as Neo's from Pete, so , yes Pete DID sell them WITH their present condition, again, according to the seller.

I was unaware of that, thanks for the info. >:(
I never spoke to the guy that was selling the trio on KS.

[techbota]

Now this breeder is a well known breeder around here, but do you think I will ever purchase another dog from him.   Nope.  Not when I can find the same breed of dog somewhere else.
Why not? Do you not think that the other breeders are getting the same disease in their litters? I wouuld be happy he's honoring his gaurentee!

Its a well known disease in this type of dog


First: Why did you buy it then????

Second: This is what happens with inbreeding. Which is what you have to do to make some of the more spectacular looking animals. OR oddities if you should call them.

A dog with a FLAT scrunched face
A tea cup poodle
A Snow boa

Its all the same.

You have to have genetic diversity to get the strongest genes. Our creations dont have genetic diversity.


Excellent example on why breeders shouldn't breed/sell defective animals. Good post Shane
So do you agree that the parents of that litter should not be allowed to breed? So a 5000-10000 dollar investment down the drain.

If you want a snake that has a family line of being INBRED then these eventually are going to be the results. You will always have defects!!!

Look buy the one eyed boas. Make sure and get them at a discount too. Becasue im sure you can. Breed tham and sell them. Its the same animal as its brother the two eyed boa. Some of its babies might have defects and others wont.

And the breeder that bought a different albino or snow from a different breeder will have the same defects. So dont lose a wink of sleep over it.

[Randy_T.]

So do you agree that the parents of that litter should not be allowed to breed? So a 5000-10000 dollar investment down the drain.
If you want a snake that has a family line of being INBRED then these eventually are going to be the results. You will always have defects!!!
Look buy the one eyed boas. Make sure and get them at a discount too. Becasue im sure you can. Breed tham and sell them. Its the same animal as its brother the two eyed boa. Some of its babies might have defects and others wont.
And the breeder that bought a different albino or snow from a different breeder will have the same defects. So dont lose a wink of sleep over it.

Well you could also go the route of purchasing an animal from someone who outbred the animals instead of inbreeding. If someone purchased a 5-10 grand investment breeding pair and when they bred they produced genetically defective animals they could simply outbreed the animals to avoid the outcome reoccuring.(quite a few people who purchase an investment project, such as albino will usually purchase the male and female from seperate litters, and in several cases from seperate breeders to help insure the diverse bloodline) This can be viewed from several angles.

We also have to keep in mind the eye problem might not be genetic, but a "side effect" to not having pigment in the eye thus making its structure less strong/stable. So this discussion could all be nothing more then entertainment.lol.

Later Randy T. :P

[techbota]

Yes outbreeding is fine but the fact remains in half the morphs there is still inbreeding to get the desired results. Then at that point the outbreeding happens.

Dont get me wrong im not saying that morphs stink. Im just saying that if thats what your looking for then you should realize there are going to be problems getting there. AND with the breed after you do get there.

I believe this statement
We also have to keep in mind the eye problem might not be genetic, but a "side effect" to not having pigment in the eye thus making its structure less strong/stable. So this discussion could all be nothing more then entertainment.lol.

But the part thats not entertaining is the fact that someone wouldnt buy that one eyed snakes OR its babies. Ludicris! My whole aurgument is, that its the SAME snake as its 2 eyed brothers and to say that it isnt is being ignorant. AND to think that another breeder has 100% perfect albinos all the time is IGNORANT.

Well you could also go the route of purchasing an animal from someone who outbred the animals instead of inbreeding. If someone purchased a 5-10 grand investment breeding pair and when they bred they produced genetically defective animals they could simply outbreed the animals to avoid the outcome reoccuring.(quite a few people who purchase an investment project, such as albino will usually purchase the male and female from seperate litters, and in several cases from seperate breeders to help insure the diverse bloodline) This can be viewed from several angles.  


I agree with all this 100% but defects will still happen either way. Heck even with normals.

lol

Look at midgets!! They have perfectly good children.

[ksshane]

Why not? Do you not think that the other breeders are getting the same disease in their litters? I wouuld be happy he's honoring his gaurentee!


I posted a long drawn out answer to all of this, but then realized we are talking about my dog. When this post has to do with breeding boas with missing eyes.

Here is a quick summary on my dog situation.. and this should be the end of it.

My dog is a Doberman Pincher with a blood desease. If it happens to get cut it could bleed to death. Her blood wont clot the way it is suppose too.
All doberman are tested for this desease by a (reputable)vet before they reach the age of 6 months. Even if a doberman doesnt show signs of the disease this test will show if the doberman is a carrier of it.
So this breeder new that his dogs had the disease, but chose not to tell me, and hoped my vet wouldnt check for it.
No.. I wont ever purchase from him again.

Now back to the point of this post.
I personally wouldnt buy a boa missing an eye or eyes for my breeding stock. In my opinion we should be trying to strengthen the blood line as well as the quality of "look". If looks (ie morphs) are what you are looking for.
Now would I buy an animal that had a sibling with a defect. Probably not if I knew before hand, but there isnt much I can do after the purchase.

[Dixiesys]

So just out of curiousity if the person who has the one-eyed boa DOESN'T sell it what should he do with it? Kill it? Keep it?

My take is an animal with an apparently visible genetic defect could still be a fine pet, but I don't think I'd breed it unless I was gonna outcross it heavily with known non inbred animals (LTC perhaps) and even then there's no shortage of snakes with 2 eyes to breed, which YES may have this gene but apparently it's not a very prominent one so the snake with 2 eyes is perhaps only a het or something like that.

My moral question is, what should that breeder tell you about the snakes from the litter that DO have 2 eyes "by the way this litter produced a snake with 1 eye" seems to me it isn't the one eyed snakes you should be worried about, but the perfectly healthy 2 eyed snakes with 1 eyed siblings...

[YVP]

does anybody know where I can buy midgets? I want a pair, they're so cute...........hahahahah
sorry :(