This is Majik :)

[Linda]

This is my female Pastel Dream Possible het for Albino. She's a very special boa that I got from Jeff back in 2002. I had thought previously that she was gravid. She got BIG in the tail and I KNEW she was gravid. Unfortuantely I "misidentified" the swellings or it could have been "wishful thinking". LOL. Anyway on Dec 6th she had a VERY OBVIOUS SWELLING. Then on Dec 24th she shed. Now I was hoping she was gravid. I know that last swelling was and ovulation. The darn thing took up 1/3 of her body. LOL. She's now 63 days POS. I'm 100% sure she GRAVID/PREGNANT and I'm 100% sure she's got live babies in her. The only reason I know these things is because I have a little toy I used to hear the heart beats of the babies. Well, I actually only heard the beating heart of a single baby. I would have checked her out more thouroughly, but she was getting upset and I decided to leave her alone. She's gradually getting larger and larger and now I feel much better knowing she's got "little ones" in there. :'( BTW I knew she had "something in there for the last 9 weeks, because of the ovulation. It was this past Monday that I knew for sure what's in her is alive. :P

[reidness]

linda, that is a beautiful girl you got there! did you pick up one of those sonagrams on ebay? or did you use somthing a little cheeper? who is the father of this one? im glad to see you are still breeding after all you went through last year. good luck reid

[Chris13160]

Dear Linda,
I am sorry to disappoint you, you couldn't have heared the heartbeat of an embryo boa baby inside your gravid female. First of all the construction of a reptilian heart is totally different than that of mammals, it doesn't make sounds like a mammalian heart. Second of all she is just 63 days POS, the embryo's are hardly developped at this moment. It is absolutely impossible to hear heartbeats of embryo's in this stage. Probably you heared noises from the intestines in your female. But don't worry,looking at the story of this female, she must be gravid !

Chris van Kalken
The Netherlands

[Linda]

Thanks Reid,
I did get it off Ebay. It's a fetal doppler. It's a hand held ultra sound devise and it's used to hear heart beats as early as 8 weeks in humans. The sound wasn't the same squishy sound you'd hear in mammals, but it was definitely a heart beat. The father is my Pastel Dream that's proven 100% het for Albino. I'll post a picture of him later.
Chris,
I really hate to disagree with you, but I know what a heat beat sounds like. I also know what sounds from the intestines sounds like. I've heard both. There was no mistaking the sound of a heart beat for intestinal noise. I guess you'd have to hear it for your self to know what I'm talking about. What I heard wasn't random popping sounds. It had "rhythm". What sort of sound should I have heard if it was intestinal noises?

[Chris13160]

Linda,

How many heartbeats a minute did you hear?

Chris van Kalken
The Netherlands

[Linda]

Chris I didn't have a watch on me and I don't have the bpm display on the doppler. I didn't want to spend the additional 100 dollars in case it didn't work. I counted 1 mississippi 2 mississippi and I said it sort of fast. I did that several times. I got a total of 4 beats saying "1 mississippi 2 mississippi". I "estimated" a heart rate of 60 to 70 bpm. I'm not sure what the heart rate of a boa should be. If you know don't tell me. Then, if you want I can try again later and get a more accurate count. Before the heart beat sounds I heard on Monday, which would have been 61 days POS, I heard "popping sounds" but they were eratic and didn't sound at all like the sounds I heard Monday. The popping sounds I heard "I'm guessing" were intestinal noises. Let me know if you want me to get a more accurate count on the heart rate.
Thanks,
Linda

[Sojourn]

That is awesome, Linda! I wish you the best! :'(

[Chris13160]

Linda,
I know the heartrate of boa's, but I won't tell, lol. Let me know how much you count the next time. I will also post a picture of an ultrasound of my boa female around 60 days POS so you can see for yourself how very very small such an embryo is at that time.

Chris van Kalken
The Netherlands

[ratman]

Guys and gals that is all very interesting! I would love to know more about this subject and where to find this ultrasound and what exactly it is called. I am not saying either of you is wrong or right but IF it is impossible to hear the babies' heartbeat at this time is it possible it was the mother's? I am also glad to hear you are still breeding Linda. I followed the post(s) last year and was very sorry to hear how it turned out for you. I wish you the best of luck with this girl! :'(

[Linda]

Thanks Sojourn and Ratman,
I didn't plan on breeding her this year, but I accidently left her in the males cage. I got a very important phone call while cleaning cages. I didn't get back downstairs till the next morning. Anyway by that time he was courting and trying to breed. To make a long story short I left them together.
Now the the Doppler I'm using is the Sonotrax Series Ultrasonic Pocket Doppler. It's made by Danatech Medical Systems. I believe it does work and you can hear heart beats. I know that's what I'm hearing. I don't think what I'm hearing is the mother's heart beat. I heard them past the halfway point on her body. :'(
Now Chris for that heart rate. LOL. First of all I'm not sure how to count a heart rate for a boa. I hear 2 distinct sounds. The first sound is a loud, but not super loud, beat. The second one is just like the first, only it's slightly more "muffled". So what we're talking is a bomp bomp bomp bomp sound. Now if you're suppose to count both the loud and soft bomps  seperately there's 33 in 15 seconds. That would make a bpm of 132. If you're only suppose to count the louder bomp then you would have 66. OK, now it's your turn to say what the heart rate is of a baby boa. LOL. I counted it several times and I recorded it on cassette tape as best I could. I don't know if I isolated a single baby or not, but I tried. This time she was trying to get away from me, so it was a bit harder.

[Panama_Red]

Linda,
She looks great! I am glad to hear that the fetal doppler is working for you. Maybe I'll pick one of those up.

[Chris13160]

Linda,
The average heart rate in a resting baby ratsnake is around 15 bpm, in an adult boa constrictor around 8 bpm. A heart rate of 133 bpm in a boa embryo seems to me as unlikely. 66 bpm could be possible but only if they are very warmed up. Nevertheless it still seems to me as very unlikely that you could have picked up the sounds of the heart of an embryo with a simple dopler for several reasons. First of all this embryo is hardly one inch long and weights not even a quarter of what a human foetus weights at 8 weeks. Second; the bloodpressure of a reptile is about a quarter of that of a human. And third; I have been working as an animal anesthesist specialized in reptiles for a year at the faculty of veterinary medicine here in Holland. We tried to monitor heart rates in adult reptiles with a dopler and found it to be difficult. We used equipment much better than what you used for your female. If it is possible for you to record the sounds you heared digitaly and send them to me, i would apreciate that very much. i have some veterinary friends who would like to hear it, maybe they can tell what it is.

Chris van Kalken
The Netherlands

[boaz]

Perhaps Linda is hearing her own heart beating with excitement ;-)


Hey Chris, have you got any ultrasound images of snake embryos? They would be cool to see.

Mark

[Chris13160]

Hi Mark,

This is an ultrasound of a follicle one month before ovulation. It is the round dark structure in the picture. I e-mailed my vet today to send me a picture of a developing embryo 45 days POS. When I get it, I will post it here.

Chris van Kalken
The Netherlands

[Linda]

Hi Chris,
I LOVE that picture. I have a few ultra sound pictures my self, but none of them are of boas. Anyway I was lookkng up info on heart rate of boas last night. Don't worry I did it "after" I did the count. LOL. This is the info I found : http://intl-jeb.biologists.org/cgi/content/full/204/20/3553 Unfortunately that's the only info I found. I'm not sure if what I was hearing last night was a "single" heart beat or "multiple" heart beats. The only thing I know for sure it "sounds like heart beats". What would "intestinal" noises soud like? The sounds I've heard previously were random pops or long wooshing sounds like a wind tunnel. I guess I could take my girl to the vet for an ultra sound and see if "he" could hear heart beats. Then he could get a heart rate. I think that would be too stressful though. I don't have any way of recording the sounds digitally. I only have a cassette recorder.
I was wondering what makes you think that at 63 day POS a baby boa is 1 inch long. I would think they're a bit bigger when they're over half way through the process. When I heard the heat beats she was 81 days past "ovulation" or 61 days POS. She's only got 42 days before she's due. I just can't see how her babies could only be 1 inch or less at this stage.

[Chris13160]

Linda,
As you can see in the article they measured heart rates of small (1,2 - 2,4kg) boa's. They mean was around 26 bpm. The heart rate you heared was 66 bpm. this value can be right for embryo's. The size of an embryo 63 days POS will be around two inches (sorry, I was confused with the ultrasound my vet took of one of my females at 45 days POS). I can tell you from experience that the embryo's grow the most in the last 6 weeks of gravidity. It would be nice if you could hear heart beats at more than one location in your female, can you try that one time? That is probably not so difficult with so many embryo's. I still think you heared something else than the heart beat of an embryo, like bloodflow in the abdomen of the mother.

Chris van Kalken
The Netherlands

[Hogboa]

Beautiful boa, Linda ! Do you have a site or web photo album? Every pic ya post are beautiful animals! I'd LOVE to see your collection !
BTW.. The DH hypo I got from you...........his background color is turning almost pastel white & his orange markings are getting orangee orange! I couldn't be more happier with him.
When people come to visit my snake room, which is 2/3 rd's of the second floor of my home, out of the wall to wall cages & racks.they ALWAYS notice the lil' DH laying on top of his hide box. Out of ALL my morphs...he's everyone's favorite. Even people that know nothing about my collection,morphs...ect. Everything I have in my collection to most people are "just snakes"
Thanks Again !
Dve @ East TN Reptiles :-*

[Linda]

Hi Chris,
I actually checked her in more than 1 location last night. The area where she's largest is where I heard the sound. The areas closest to the vent I only heard random poping from time to time. It's actually is sort of hard to check for the sounds. I can't go through the rib cage to do it. Also if she moves I have to start over. I can only check when she's on her side or has the area below the rib at easy access. Now I was wondering...... If what I'm hearing is actually heart beats of the babies should it get louder and/or more clear as they grow. For instance if I check again in 3 weeks.... What should I expect to hear? What size would the babies be at that time? Is checking for heart beats going to upset her and cause her problems? I know you really don't think I'm hearing heart beats, but "what if I am"? I didn't hear them until she was basically in her last 6 weeks. That's the time you've said baby boas grow the most. That's something I didn't know. I thought they just gradually grew at a steady rate. I would have guessed the size of her babies at 5 or 6 inches by now, but from what you say that's most likely not the case. I know the sounds I'm hearing "sound like heart beats". I guess only taking her to the vet for an ultra sound would prove if that's what it is or not. After all if a vet could hear a heart beat with the same thing I'm using that would make it conclusive. BTW if I did take her to the vet I'd take the doppler I'm using so he could listen. I just don't think it's worth stressing her out. After all, like I said in my first post, "she's a very special boa". :'(

[Linda]

Thanks Dave,
But I think you think I'm the "other" Linda. Yeah, Linda H has some AWESOME animals. She's got the BEST GHOSTS. Of course, you have some AMAZING boas too. :'(

[Chris13160]

Linda,

Don't take her to a vet. He can't hear much more than you can. We know from ovulation how far she is, so keep your money in your pocket.
I made a little list for you of embryonic development;
30 days POS; 0,5 inch
45 days POS; 1 inch
60 days POS; 2 inch
75 days POS; 4 inch
90 days POS; 8 inch
105 days POS; 16 inch
These values I calculated based on embryo sizes of ratsnakes in different stages of development and ultrasounds in a number of other species. Also these values are just an indication, temperature, feeding, stress, subspecies, number of litter etc. etc. play a role in size and development of the embryo's too.
As you can see from 60 days POS to 90 days POS the embryo and threre for his heart will increase about 4 times, so heart flow should be much stronger and easier for you to pick up. keep monitoring your female!!

BTW; I feel many owners of boas exaggerate the bad effects of handling their gravid snakes. As long as you handle them in a normal carefull way and transport them with the right temperatures nothing happens with gravid females.

Chris van Kalken
The Netherlands

[PauLB]

Interesting Linda and Chris.Im no expert by any means but how could anyone hear a heart beat from one embryo when there are anywhere from 10 to 30 of them ? Just curious .Oh and Dave are you talking about Linda H. In Susanville Calif. ? and do you have pics of this Hypo.I would like to get some of Linda H's Ghost she has some clean ones if thats who you guys are talking about.Im not far from there maybe if Im lucky I can get a pair of her ghost next year. And by the way I love your pastel dream I really like Jeffs boas and the only people who dont that I know of is people who dont have one lmao

[Linda]

Thanks Chris,
That's some GREAT INFO! I never knew how the babies developed before. I'm guessing that could be why the females sometimes get aggressive towards the end. I'd be grumpy too if I had that many babies growing that fast. :'( I will save my money and keep her at home. I'm going to check her again on days 75, 90, and 105, but only if she allows it. The other night she was acting upset with the whole process. I know you said it won't hurt her if you're gentle, but I'm still a bit "paranoid" with gravid females. You know after what happened last yeat. :-/

Thanks PaulB,
Majik is one of Jeff's Pastel Dreams. She's also one of the most colorful boas I have. :'( The only other one that comes close is the father of her babies. He's another Pastel Dream from Jeff. The only difference is that he's been proven to be Het for Albino. I'm hoping Majik will prove out this year, but I won't be dissapointed either way. :'(
Now as far as hearing a "heart beat from a single embryo"....... Well, I can't say for sure what I heard was a single embryo. I can't see what I was listening too. I could only hear it. To me it sounds like the sounds of a heart beat. I can't say if it was a single embryo or multiple embryo's. The only thing I know for sure it that it "sounds" like a heart beat sound.
BTW I have 2 other females that I tried to breed. I don't hear the sounds in them. I've decided they're not gravid. One of them has passed her due date by 11 days and shows no signs of getting ready to give birth. She also ate very aggressively yesterday. The next one is due next month and she's now in a shed cycle. I don't think she's gravid either.
I don't know if what I'm hearing is the heart beats of babies or, like Chris said, the blood flow in the abdomin of the female. The only thing I can be sure of is that it sounds "exactly like a heart beat". I wish I could tell you more than that. I wish I had more gravid females to "listen to", but I don't. Hearing the sounds in a single female could be a "fluke" but hearing it in several females "could" prove that you can hear them and use this method to tell if your boas are gravid for sure. I need to do more research. :'(

[ratman]

Well good luck with her Linda and thanks for the info on the doppler! :'(

[PauLB]

My thought are the same concerning breeding Jeffs hets I just got one of his 2002 males 66% And was informed by another member he wasnt indeed a het.Like I told him its a win win situation breeding Jeff's stock.Thats why I will continue to add some to my Future projects.As you may Know my last female who gave birth last sunday is a East Bay Vivarium Red group x Ronne pastel.Her babies at 3 days are showing red. Proof that Jeffs stock will most of the time clean up your line. Message me linda I would be happy to send pics of my pastel collection.Being a Pastel nut myself I always love seeing other pastel lines

[Chris13160]

This is a picture of an ultra sound of my first female to be gravid this season. It was taken at 45 days POS. The dark round structure with the light stuff in it is a follicle with an embryo inside. The folicle itself is maybe half an inch in diameter.
As you can see embryo's are still very very small 45 days POS.

Chris van Kalken
The Netherlands